...to be deeply disappointed in my friend?

[Fabulassie]

It's 8am - I just got home from some friends' house. We'd had a pleasant enough evening that went into the morning just sitting and talking and listening to music. They live near me, but in a dodgy neighbourhood, so one of my friends - a guy named W - walked me home. It was still dark out when we left (about 6am.) About a block from their house, we saw a girl walking towards us sobbing. I was expecting her to just be crying about some fight with a friend or a boyfriend or something. But when we got closer we could see that she was barefoot, walking a bit drunkenly and her dress was torn. So, we asked if she was alright and she started crying that she just wanted to go home.

She lived somewhere pretty far away - on the far side of the very worst neighbourhoods. She had scratches on her chest and a bruise on her face and one strap of her dress was torn and she had no shoes or purse. So was saying she wanted a taxi and could we get her a taxi but was just incoherent and crying.

At first I thought about the logistics of calling her a taxi. We were on a residential street and didn't know what address to give. And, how could she pay for a taxi with no money? It seemed to me that she was in no condition to be sent into a taxi - I wasn't even sure if she could give her address. I said, "Do you want me to call the police?" and she was wailing that she wanted to go home and I said, "I really think you need the police." And she said, "OK. Call the police."

And this is where shit got weird. W goes, "No, no. Don't call the police. They'll just ask a bunch of questions. Call her a taxi." I said, "No taxi is going to take a half-naked hysterical woman with no money. She needs the police." He said, "No. No police, man. Just get her a taxi and let her go home." I said, "No - I am calling the police." And W said, "I don't want to be involved. I'm going" and he walked away towards his flat.

So, I called the police, managing to give them the intersection we were standing in. The girl was sobbing hysterically and crying - I was hugging her and she was crying "I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!" over and over. I hugged her and rubbed her back and said it would be alright and she started to cry "Please don't leave me - I'm so sorry! Please don't leave me!" So I hugged and shushed her like a baby and told her of course I was going to stay and no need to be sorry. The police came in a couple of minutes (two cars and about four cops) and she clung to me for a couple of minutes until we coaxed her into sitting in the car. I asked if I could sit with her a bit and they said I could so I rubbed her shoulder and patted it until she seemed to be able to start to talk to the police. I didn't understand what she was saying - something about some men in a taxi - and once I could tell that she was OK talking to them and didn't need me I figured I should go. I didn't think it was my business to listen to her story, for some reason. It felt like rubbernecking and she didn't seem to need me anymore - the police were very kind and supportive and I figured I should go. The police agreed (they have my name and number) and I left.

W called me right away - he'd been watching from his balcony and wanted me to come the other way and he'd walk me home. So, he walked me home. And I asked him why he'd left and wanted to avoid the police. He said that he didn't want to be involved and be asked a lot of questions. "I think that girl is probably just making drama. She's drunk." I said she had a torn dress, scratches and bruises, no shoes, and it looked like her weave had been pulled from her head on one side. Something violent had happened to her. "Yeah, maybe. I don't know. You should have just called a taxi."

We stopped at McDonald's (the original plan as we were hungry but in truth I had no appetite) and I was just really puzzled and wanted to ask him more about it but I didn't want to be naggy about it - it bugged me, though. I said, "What would you have done if I hadn't been there?" "I would have ignored her. I dunno. Maybe called her a taxi." Then he said, "That's a really bad neighbourhood. A girl was dragged into the bushes right by there and raped by a guy with a knife this summer."

So he would have just let her walk through there - clearly vulnerable to anyone who wanted to prey on a drunk, hysterical woman. And I always thought of him as a really nice person - I consider him a pretty good friend. I am just really shocked and disappointed. At most, he would be contacted by investigators or maybe - just maybe - be asked for testimony in court should someone be tried for a crime. And he said, "Yeah, that's what I don't want. I don't want to answer a bunch of questions, like I'm the guilty one." He did say something about how in his home country, the police may just lock someone up because they were at the scene of a crime, even if all they did was report it. So, maybe he has a distrust of the police. But he knows that that is now how it is in England.

It was an alarming and upsetting thing to encounter someone in such distress in the first place and my friend's reaction to it has really disturbed me, as well. I don't hate him or anything but I am very disappointed in him and I have lost a lot of respect for him.

I had mentioned to the girl serving us at McDonald's that we'd come across a woman who seemed to have been violently attacked and she just laughed and said, "Oh, typical night around here!"

I'd also posted something abbreviated about it on Facebook (not all the details about my friend W's behaviour, but just that I'd called the police to help a hysterical woman in a torn dress who had clearly been attacked) and someone I don't know that well has just commented "LOL... must have been a Saturday night!"

Am I crazy? AIBU to think that this is a shocking and awful thing and that everybody else's reaction is bizarre?

I did talk to him about it. I told him that the police were very pleasant and kind to the girl and had no interest in me at all. I told him that the police here won't do things like throw people in jail for looking at them funny, etc. I didn't lecture him about how drunk women are also sympathetic victims, etc. I just didn't have the heart to go there.

All I posted on Facebook was "Just had to call the police for a hysterical woman who looked as if she'd been assaulted. I hope she's alright."

I'd ask him what would have happened if the police had been called to this incident in Lybia. YU might get the reason for him acting like he did.

RiverTam, he could have called the police anonymously and made himself scarce.

No excuses

"Actually am I alone in thinking that the UK police may well have asked if it was actually him who had done this to the girl? "

This did occur to me. I do think there would be a chance that they might want to check him out and if the girl remained as incoherent as she initially was (she had trouble telling them her name for a few minutes) perhaps he might even have worried that in her confused state she would say something to implicate him. However, it seems obvious and logical to me that he would be cleared very quickly - his alibi was strong and she was certainly on CCTV as she'd just walked past a car dealership alone while we were on CCTV leaving the building at the same time together on our way towards her. However, this might not seem obvious to someone from a more corrupt country.

If you want to continue your friendship it sounds as though you'll have to discuss his victim blaming with him at some point.

I understand posting it on fb. You were in shock and you didn't disclose anything that might identify the woman.

But you didn't post on mn about that, did you.

I think it's really important to call people out on their behaviour so well done for continuing to discuss it with him. You may help him see things from a new perspective.

ilovesooty I don't think I can discuss that with him. I mean, I don't see how I'm going to change his mind about anything. He's always struck me a very kind and loyal and good guy but I would say that having a sophisticated or nuanced conversation with him would be difficult. I'm not saying he's stupid - just that we don't communicate quite that well (perhaps a language thing or maybe he is a bit dim.) And I can't imagine hectoring and lecturing someone into an entirely different frame of mind regarding victim blaming. It seems to me that such things are either apparent to people naturally or they are not. At any rate, I don't feel up to the task.

But, I can imagine he knows I'm disappointed in him and he may want to talk about it, himself, in the future. I'll certainly bother to say what I think about that but I don't see it doing any real good.

I was going to ask if he was black. Because I wouldnt want to be a black man in the UK, on the edge of a notorious estate, getting involved in a situation either. The police would not take him at face value. And I doubt the estate would want a a coppers narc in their midst either.

Of course I accept thatis your choice and people react differently to events. I think for me that ssomeone's attitude to that would affect my ability to maintain the friendship though.

I would be disappointed in his actions, but that is because I would have made a different choice based on all my own life experiences.
Although we can listen to another's experiences, we can never really understand them as wouldn't have been through them, sometimes some things are deeply ingrained.
To me it sounds like he was fearful, he almost went into fight/flight and chose the latter option.
You say about others reactions being weird, I would find chatting to a randomer in McD's and putting it on facebook weird- and I don't mean that to be insulting to you, just showing how people react differently.
You know your friend, only you can make a choice what this means for your friendship.

I meant that I'd be less accepting of victim blaming than of an unwillingness to call the police.

It's helpful to hear from other people who understand where his POV about the police comes from. It makes more sense, now. It was only because I pressed him about it at McDonald's that he explained it to me. I did wonder, myself, if he had a personal reason to avoid interacting with the police (criminal record) because it was just so bizarre, but I know that he's a pretty straight arrow and general fear of police makes much more sense.

His wanting to minimise it as "drunk girl drama" seems a bit in character when I think of how he often minimises other unpleasant things, in general. "Oh, that guy probably didn't see you standing there" or "Oh, don't worry about that. It's probably XYZ instead of ABC." I think he just wanted to believe that nothing truly terrible had happened and the police weren't really necessary. He did, after all, seem quite concerned and solicitous when we initially approached her.

I would find chatting to a randomer in McD's and putting it on facebook weird- and I don't mean that to be insulting to you, just showing how people react differently.

It's the same thing as posting about it here. When I'm upset about something I need to talk to people about it. Naturally, I wouldn't say anything to betray her anonymity in any case. I think if my friend had shared my reaction to everything I wouldn't have felt the need to talk to someone about it.

I think unless you come from somewhere like Libya it's probably quite difficult to truly understand the fear of the police. Sure we know some of them are less than ideal here, but on the whole we know the justice system wont just throw us in jail just for kicks.

He was walking you home, he did keep an eye on the situation from a distance, he did meet with you to go to McD's and walk you home. So he obviously cares about his friends.

I don't think he was 'victim blaming' as much as minimising to justify not getting involved and given his background, I find it hard to blame him for that.

However, as much as I could understand and tolerate that in a friend who was otherwise decent, I couldn't be in a relationship with him - our views on things like this would cause too many issues. So if you think this is where this friendship is heading, I think you need to have a good think about things. Although someone might intellectually be able to change (ie you might be able to persuade him that the police here can be trusted) they very rarely actually change their beliefs and how they react when in the situation.

I once went to a talk that covered how a lot of decisions that we think are about about morality, are based on culture. And the different attitudes of the police absolutely shape our reactions.

There are good reasons for him behaving the way he did. All of those are things he needs to get over however if he wishes to be a decent human being. Far too many of us ignore when we should intervene. There are safer ways of doing it if you're scared (anon phonecall) but to walk away is Molly wrong.

Well that would be morally, not sure where Molly came from!

Fabulassie: interesting story. Years ago I had something not dissimilar happen - a male friend and I gave a lift home to a young woman who was completely incapacitated with drink and who, I suspect, may have been raped.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. You did the right thing. Like others, I imagine your friend has reason to be nervous of the police, either on the basis of his experience in his own country or over here. I think for most law-abiding people, particularly if they are white, calling the police is an instinctive response to a situation like this, because we assume the police will be on the victim's side and behave with integrity. That is clearly not the case for your friend.

well done you op, and you have shown your friend a good example of the principles of this country!

certianly you would have given him things to think aboutl.
I have met people from zimbabwe who wouldnt talk about the regime in an empty office with just me because they were so scared.

If I was the girl, I'd appreciate your help but I would be upset you spoke to the woman who served you in Macdonalds about it and put something on FB and MN.

I've just read a bit about Libya on the Human Rights Watch website. I can see why he feels an instinctive distrust towards the police.

I think I will tell him that the police were very, very nice - quite sweet and soothing to the girl and friendly but mostly uninterested in me. I want to urge him to believe that he can trust them. I doubt that this will actually change his POV but I feel more sympathetic towards him than I did.

He did show concern for the girl in general, he did watch from a distance, and he did go out of his way to come back out and walk me home. I'm not as upset with him as I was.

Thanks for helping me think this through and talk about it.

I think he watched you from a distance, rather than the young woman?

I can see why he would be scared to be involved with the policy of his only experience of them is in Libya. People being disappeared and torture chambers galore.

You did the right thing OP obviously.

I would def want to understand a bit more about why your friend was so shit in that situation.

It's good that you helped her. It must have been very upsetting for you. I have to agree that I think it is not the type of thing that should be posted on Facebook. I am not quite sure why but I wouldn't post about something like that.

I can, sort of understand, your friends actions. I think he could have handled it a lot better though. (Obviously!) it was good that he was keeping an eye on you from his balcony. I can imagine he was not only distrustful of the police but worried about what the girl might say.