To think the human race is too unevolved for perfect relationships

[CulturalBear]

Bit deep this, but bear with me. They say if you love someone enough, you love them 'exactly as they are'. It's constantly pointed out that your partner shouldn't want to change you in any way shape or form. It's a 'sin' to suggest change.

But how are we ever to improve ourselves, our relationships, our futures for ourselves and our children if we don't love someone enough to help them see how different life could be if they allow themselves to become healthier individuals?

I'm not talking physically, per se (although there is an element of that - should a husband point out that going from 8 stone to 13 stone is dangerous and offer to help?), but more emotionally.

Emotions and past histories and life experiences make us the beat-up smiling-on-the-outside walking bags of issues that we are. We fall in love with the facades, sometimes we get to see some of the stuff in storage, but some stuff can be locked deeply away - still taking up space, still having a huge impact.

How do you help someone to unpack the demons and put them in a safer place, thus giving them more opportunities to feel love and happiness in their (and your collective family's) future?

AIBU to think we have created a ridiculous society whereby we are simply too emotionally unevolved to have the 'perfect relationship' (except for the very rare, very lucky individuals who manage to pick each other out as already evolved)?

How can we ever move towards a happier society, where people can properly support each other when there is this underlying attitude of 'if you love them, let them be'?

You're doing it again! That statement is based on your claimed assumption that everyone wants to change their partner, but isn't allowed to want this. Absolute bollocks.

If you've married someone who seemed right for you, but turns out not to be for whatever reason, you face that fact. Mistakes happen - rather a lot, as it goes.

What you do not do is try and turn them into someone else - even if the 'someone else' is the person you used to think they were. You were mistaken. This is the real issue.

Trying to alter a fellow human being is arrogant, controlling, and doomed to failure.

Please stop pretending that everyone does this; they don't.

Oh, I'd madly enjoy being selfish. I'd have had a much nicer life when my kids were small if I'd never changed nappies or bathed them. (Well, maybe not bathed them. Bathtime is quite fun. But you get my gist.)

There's a huge amount of pleasure out of sitting on your arse while other people rush round you. Course there is. We don't get off said arses out of the wish to be Lovely People and get gratification, we do it because we are adults who know we need to step up to the plate. I wouldn't worry that his soul is rotting away if you don't rescue him.

I don't believe everyone wants to change their partner - some people get ridiculously lucky and find someone who's self-aware enough to have sorted themselves out before they met.

Everyone has demons of some description. Everyone's demons have the capacity to impact on day-to-day life.

And actually, cailindala he does. He says things like... if you wore nicer underwear I'd want sex more often. If you had fun and smiled more, I'd love you more. If you just forgot about all of the traumatic things in your past, you wouldn't be so messed up.

I love him and I care about him. I'm not going to love him any more if he sorts himself out - but our life will be happier and more harmonious. Our children will (hopefully) be happier, and life will generally be better.

My point is that the relationship could be better if we were both more complete individuals. He's broken, I'm broken. I'm trying to fix myself - he thinks he's Mr Perfect. If I can't tell him he's not and encourage him to better himself then what's the point?

Should each of us seek to be the best we can be, according to our own standards & beliefs, in any given circumstances? Yes; that is self-compassionate.

Should each of us be selfish, lazy and greedy if our circumstances, beliefs and standards allow it? Yes; that is self-compassionate.

Does any of us have a duty to be the best we can, and to treat ourselves as well as we can? No; those are personal choices and they may change over time.

Does any of us have the duty or the right to force others to enhance their compassion for self & others? No. Not unless they're children and our duty is to guide them. The compassionate adult allows others to make their own choices, even if we don't consider them compassionate.

Does compassion involve self-sacrifice? Where children are concerned, and in emergencies, yes. In the general run of things, no: there is no compassion in forcing oneself to suffer.

Any use? :)

Sorry, but it sounds as if you're married to a bit of a dick. Are you trying to change him?

Very useful

He can be a bit of a dick. He doesn't think he is. I wish he would see it - but he has no frame of reference.

He's affectionate and he cares - but only to a point and only on his terms. He amputates everyone and everything else. If he was more open to life, life would have so much more for him.

Tis frustrating.

I'm 100% certain I'm not the only one with a DP like this.

Sorry, OP, but he just sounds awful. Possibly, if you dedicated the rest of your life to sorting him out, he might become less awful. But really, is it worth it?

No, you're not the only person with an awful partner. Sadly.

Garlic is right, that's what was bothering me about the argument which I couldn't quite work out! It's definitely not the case that everybody wants to change their partner but isn't allowed to.

You can't take somebody on as a project and as a life partner at the same time, it doesn't work. It's like trying to refurbish a house while you're living in it, except that people can't be changed one separate "room" at a time, everything is connected to everything else so the "house" is completely unlivable while you're renovating it - again I wrote about this recently but I think the thread might have been deleted. (I should just copy and paste all my stuff I keep re-referencing into a blog somewhere If you want to help somebody change then there are four reasons you can't do it while in a relationship with them:

1. Helping somebody change puts you in the role of mentor and they as student. This is a power/hierarchy imbalance, and is not compatible with a healthy relationship which needs to be equal. Even if it is temporary it is damaging to a relationship to enter these kinds of roles because it is always there as an undercurrent, and you'll slip back into it at times of stress.

If there is abuse by the partner who is being "improved" then they are also unlikely to accept this hierarchy direction, additionally if there are other issues such as sexism or contempt in general.

1. Professional mentors/counsellors/therapists (etc) have years of training and study, for a reason. It's not something that should be attempted by an amateur who thinks they know what is best. Just as you wouldn't perform surgery on your partner (unless you're a surgeon of course!), it's foolish to assume that you can help somebody change when you have no knowledge or experience about how to actually go about doing this.

Further to this, abusers/narcissists/certain other entitled categories of people are known to be extremely manipulative and even professional therapy can make them worse - because of the way their minds work and their skewed perspective. Read Lundy Bancroft on this, he is excellent. Don't assume that because it's "just" emotional/mental stuff you can't make it worse even being well meaning and kind. You absolutely can and it's not a good game to play. (Far more likely TBH that it just will have no effect whatsoever, and/or cause damage to you rather than to him).

1. Professionals don't spend 24 hours a day or live with their student/client/patient, because this would be extremely draining. The mentor needs time to debrief, to emotionally detach, to have time and space so as not to get sucked into a crisis or drama. Also just to reconnect with the world as it is experienced by most people and not this micro-world which is created with this kind of change.

1. Professionals are not emotionally invested in or emotionally involved with their clients. That gets in the way - you know how you can deal so much more calmly with somebody else's children than your own? Like that. Also when you are emotionally invested in something you tend to panic far earlier and kid yourself things are going better than they are because you want that to be true. Plus, you won't be able to help projecting your own hopes and desires onto what your partner wants or is trying to achieve - an uninvested professional would be able to be totally focused on what their client wanted, because it wouldn't affect them in any way.

And these are all problems which are in the way when the person wants to change, recognises the need for change and understands what they need to do and are ready to do it. Four huge steps, which many people never reach in their lifetimes. They have to reach them alone, as well - change for somebody else is not authentic and will be undone eventually, probably explosively.

If you were more fun I'd love you more.

That is really quite awful.

I am frequently moved to near-homicidal rage by the failings of my own dear Mr Inferior, but there are limits, dammit.

Can you support someone to make changes they have decided to make? Support them through therapy, through hard times while they make those changes? - Yes. Can you lay out your terms and say "Unless X changes I am not happy to stay in this relationship"? Yes. Can you explain to a person the effect that their behaviour/words/actions have had on you - absolutely. And all of these things are valuable and kind and honest things to do. But you cannot ask somebody to change when they are not ready to do so, and you can't save somebody who doesn't want to be saved. You can say "I'm over here when you're ready", but don't wait around and make your whole life about waiting for that moment, because it might not ever come.

You seem to only see two categories of relationship - either being miserable and wanting to change your partner but 'society' tells you that's not allowed, or being 'ridiculously lucky'.

That's like saying the only people who are not living in poverty are millionaires.

Most people, in most relationships, are doing ok. That doesn't mean everything is perfect, or that given a magic wand they wouldn't like it if their partner was just a bit different in some respects. But they are not faced with partners who are routinely inconsiderate and don't think that you have any right to happiness.

That's not the norm. Men being like that is not the norm. Putting up with that on a day-to-day basis is not the norm.

You're right, I know. It makes me feel sad.

I got my 'acceptance of referral' letter from the counselling service the other night. He said to me - why are you pleased about that? And I said because I want to get better, I want to move on, and I need help to do that.

I think it went over his head.

To go back to the original question though, are we saying that everyone else loves their partner so much they would never dream of encouraging them to change?

Oh he's definitely not the only one! And you're not the only woman to ever hold out in hope of change, just don't wait forever.

"not being the man he (I really believe this) wants to be deep down."

"I'm trying to fix myself - he thinks he's Mr Perfect."

You are contradicting yourself totally. You're convinced (despite all evidence to the contrary) that he must really want to be a better person. Why? Because you're projecting your own worldview and internal processes onto him. You are making the fatal mistake of assuming that everybody, deep down, is the same and hence they are all like you - that's a perfectly natural way to see the world, but it is a lie. Not everybody thinks the same and we are not the same deep down. There probably is no deeply buried desire to change - he is who he is and he is happy with that. (Must be a nice feeling ) It is so, so jarring to realise, but not everybody is fundamentally kind, even somebody who appears kind on the surface might not have that underlying drive. Our own mental processes and drives are so innate to us that it is extremely difficult to process the thought that others' are different, but they are.

You know how it feels to want to change yourself - you feel regret and embarrassment about past actions. You catch yourself doing something and you cringe or feel guilt. You have visions of how you want to be in the future. You have perhaps tried several different things in the past even if different methods didn't work. When has he ever showed any evidence of this desire to change? If it was there, no matter how buried, he would have shown it by now.

I also take issue with this:
"[lucky people who are with] someone who's self-aware enough to have sorted themselves out before they met."

That's not the case. It's not a choice between "issues which are damaging to a relationship" and "sorted, relationship-perfection ready!". Most people have issues to work on, it's a life's work, if you like. But it's possible to work on your issues (or ignore your issues, if you like) while not putting them on the other person to deal with or letting them get in the way of a relationship. A person with healthy boundaries notices when issues are getting in the way and says "Hey, don't put your shit on me, thanks!" It doesn't mean (again) you can't be supportive of issues that your partner has. But when "issues" become excuses for dumping on you, that's not okay and is not what a supportive relationship is about.

Thanks, Bertie. Food for thought.

It's not about loving them so much, if that makes sense - you've already said yourself that for you, your love for him is separate to the issues, that you wouldn't magically love him more if he sorted out the issues.

So it's like that really. Not to do with love. More to do with each partner keeping their own issues their own - I'm not explaining this very well, I fear. You can support each other with various issues but when those issues start to dominate or affect the relationship, then it's not working. That's the point at which the affected partner should make it clear that they are being affected by this, and the partner with the current issue (because we all bring issues to a relationship so it's not one sided) recognises that this is unfair on their partner and either tries to keep it under control by themselves, brings in outside help (counselling etc) or changes the way they are dealing with things. Either way, they're acknowledging the burden they are placing on their partner, not just saying "Well, tough". "Issues" and "How I am" are two totally different things.

OK I thought of an example. Insecurity, common issue. The insecure partner has to recognise that the insecurity is their issue and either manage it in whatever way they find helpful, seek help for it outside the relationship, seek appropriate support from their partner (e.g. looking for reassurance, being with a person who likes to compliment often, text regularly when apart, etc rather than a person who is more solitary).

Insecurity can become damaging to a relationship if the insecure partner places restrictions on the other partner, such as constantly checking their phone, looking for hidden subtext in every conversation they have, expressing doubts and therefore discouraging their partner from going out with certain people, to certain places or wearing certain clothes.

Does that make sense to illustrate the difference?

Anyway I'm off for a bit :) Probably catch up later!

are we saying that everyone else loves their partner so much they would never dream of encouraging them to change?

No, we're saying that many of us have partners who are overall fairly nice human beings. That's perfectly reasonable to expect.

"To go back to the original question though, are we saying that everyone else loves their partner so much they would never dream of encouraging them to change?"

No, no one is saying that. You are not encouraging your partner to change. As others have said, you are projecting your ideas of what a "good" person is onto your DP and then hoping, against all evidence, that he will live up to those ideas. He has no interest in changing, you are totally wasting your time.

It's very common for women in particular to believe that men have a wonderful, loving core that they can uncover if only they work hard enough. It's a total myth. Men can and do get away with being total arseholes. It suits them, they enjoy it and they don't want anything different.

Brilliant posts on this thread, Bertie.

I'm so pleased you got your referral, Bear. I hope you land a great therapist and find the experience constructive :)

"It's a total myth." - Quite literally. The Frog Prince and Beauty & The Beast for starters. The amount of self-sacrificial crap we're fed as children, it's a wonder any of us end up sane!