To think the human race is too unevolved for perfect relationships

[CulturalBear]

Bit deep this, but bear with me. They say if you love someone enough, you love them 'exactly as they are'. It's constantly pointed out that your partner shouldn't want to change you in any way shape or form. It's a 'sin' to suggest change.

But how are we ever to improve ourselves, our relationships, our futures for ourselves and our children if we don't love someone enough to help them see how different life could be if they allow themselves to become healthier individuals?

I'm not talking physically, per se (although there is an element of that - should a husband point out that going from 8 stone to 13 stone is dangerous and offer to help?), but more emotionally.

Emotions and past histories and life experiences make us the beat-up smiling-on-the-outside walking bags of issues that we are. We fall in love with the facades, sometimes we get to see some of the stuff in storage, but some stuff can be locked deeply away - still taking up space, still having a huge impact.

How do you help someone to unpack the demons and put them in a safer place, thus giving them more opportunities to feel love and happiness in their (and your collective family's) future?

AIBU to think we have created a ridiculous society whereby we are simply too emotionally unevolved to have the 'perfect relationship' (except for the very rare, very lucky individuals who manage to pick each other out as already evolved)?

Hmm perhaps I've misunderstood and come at this from the wrong angle I wasn't meaning that your DH is a big old meany abuser. Getting lost in a theoretical spiral here.

IMO personal growth is totally separate from core moral beliefs. If your morals are not aligned then the relationship won't be aligned either and there will always be tension. OTOH personal growth can happen within or out of a relationship but it has to come from YOU. Yes the relationship can be a nurturing environment for growth or a toxic one which stunts growth, but even in the most nurturing, supportive reaction you have to be ready and willing to accept the change.

^^ I agree completely BertieBotts

Bit crap though if the only chance of finding a decent, un-faller type partner is by finding one afresh. Surely all the undamaged ones are happily married elsewhere?

Ah but in that case OP maybe this isn't a 'puddle' you need to help clear up. Maybe it's a massive hole in the floor you need to step away from to protect yourself from falling into.

Maybe butterflies, maybe. But then after 4 and a bit years, a toddler DS and an older DSS, that creates a puddle on other stairs, does it not?

'Man passes on inhumanity to man' said Philip Larkin. He wasn't wrong!

If you can clear up the puddle, why wouldn't you?

Dear God, I've got enough to do without being my partner's personal development coach as well.

My partner is a lovely bloke. Most of the time I am very fond of him. Occasionally I am driven to the brink of irritation with him. He feels much the same about me.

I think women spend far too much of their time trying lovingly to 'fix' men.

No, the idea that "all the good ones are married or gay" is a bit of a misnomer, if you really believe this then you've probably got some kind of pattern going on WRT the men you interact with (of course, you could just be unlucky! :)) Hang on, I was reading something about this earlier.

The point in this situation is that you can't clean up the puddle, because it's not a puddle (it's a metaphor ) No, because it might look like the person is slipping due to a puddle, but actually they're wearing roller skates and careering around the place of their own accord.

Isn't it as much about trying to prevent our children becoming the next generation of fucked-up adults though? There are certain behaviours of my DP that I 100% do not want my children to grow up with thinking they're ok.

Not saying please and thank you as routine - unacceptable (he used to do it, but now, when it's much much more important, he doesn't). Responding to a request for help with readying toddler for bed with 'I'm doing everything, what the fuck are you doing?' (in front of 12yo DSS - I was poorly and didn't want to drop DS on the stairs) - completely unacceptable.

If no-one encourages these people to fix themselves, our children witness dickish behaviour, they become dicks to their wives/husbands in turn. Conversely, if we separate these children from their fathers, we can often create more problems.

If it became the done thing to look into yourself, in the same way that it's now the done thing to not drink drive, or it's the done thing to check one's own breasts/testes, then maybe, we'd be heading in the right direction.

It is the done thing to look into yourself in the US, perhaps it will travel across the pond.

How are you proposing people should encourage (other, more broken by some arbitrary definition of what is okay) people to fix themselves?

I disagree that separation causes more problems, I think this is a bit of propaganda. I don't think it harms children to have parents living in different houses. The logistics may be trickier but there's no other objective reason that it's worse.

www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/myth-there-are-no-good-men-to-date-part-one/

Separation would 100% cause more problems if someone suddenly has to become a lone parent with no external support.

If we separated, I have no back-up - only his family are nearby. Leaving my job to move hundreds of miles away to my family would give me support but would remove my independence and my sanity - I am not capable of being a SAHM. There are financial considerations. If I stayed in this area, a long succession of illness meaning DS was blocked from nursery would mean my job would end up in jeopardy for being so unreliable.

A mother having a nervous breakdown would be much much more damaging, for example.

How do we encourage them? I don't know. I always thought that his friends would be horrified if they knew some of the ways he'd acted - but I'm not in for public humiliation (not helpful at all).

I'm about to start some counselling. It would be great if there became a time when they said 'your partner is central to this, he needs to come for a session or two' then he might perhaps consider it. Other than that? No chance.

He's terrified of his emotions. He is Spock. He's also not the only guy out there like this, most men I know are.

You can't be a shrink to your partner. If he needs counselling, you're not the one to do it.

Also it would be tedious and take time away from life's essentials like earning a living and spending time with your friends and your children, not to speak of drinking gin.

It's true that there are certain things you can counter. So if it was ONLY saying please and thank you for instance, it probably wouldn't be a big deal as you could counter that. Or you could explain to him that it's really important to you and hope that he made an effort to remember. But really it's about underlying issues - if he's not willing to be on board with parenting decisions, or the overt lack of support, those are the attitudes which are damaging.

Reading between the lines: your partner is acting in ways that are making you uneasy and/or unhappy, and at the same time you don't feel leaving is feasible.

It's true that it's common for men to not want to look at/talk about feelings. DH can be a bit like that and yet he's quite sensitive and we communicate well.

The bottom line is though, it's not like he's sitting there stewing with regret over stuff he's said/done. You're ascribing all of this stuff to "mummy issues" or some kind of reluctance to look at emotional stuff, but the absolute bottom line is that (to use your example) he was shouting and swearing at you because he felt like he was doing far more than his share and you were being totally unreasonable to ask him for help in the first place. If you imagine how angry you would feel if you'd had the day from hell and were still up to your ears in shit (literally, if you like!) and he just got up from bed at 2pm and sat down on the sofa and said "Oh love, could you pass me the remote please?" You'd probably shout and struggle not to swear at him. And you'd be quite entitled to do so.

That's how out of whack his perspective is and how entitled his behaviour is. It's overthinking to say this is down to "deep seated issues". No, he told you what the problem was in his eyes. The problem was that you expected him to help you with a fairly simple task while he was busy with a more important one. That will not change - why would he want to change that? How would he ever realise it was skewed? He will never step up and support you in the way that you want him to because he already feels like you ask too much of him and that he is overstepping the call of duty, and he's probably pissed off that you aren't more grateful about that.

Hang on, I've just remembered an old analogy which works well.

When men believe that the home and family are the woman's "job", they see every contribution they make to that as an extraneous, kind, helpful thing to do. Not their responsibility but generous and helpful to do so.

Just like if your partner/friend/sister ran a business, you weren't employed in that business, but you went to the premises one day for whatever reason. While you're there, you don't have anywhere else to be for a while, so you think "I might as well make myself useful" and ask if there's anything you can do. He's busy so he gratefully says "Oh, would you mind doing X for me please? That would be a great help." You happily run the errand or stuff the envelopes or whatever job it is that needs doing. The burden is reduced and you're both happy and get to go home.

Another time when you're there you notice that thing or another thing and help out without thinking/asking about it because it's a nice thing to do and you're there anyway. But over time, your partner/friend/sister starts expecting you to do stuff in their office for them. They even ask you to come out of your way to do things. You start to feel like the nice thing you did is being taken advantage of, and you feel resentful.

That's basically how men with this mindset see their contribution to the housework and childcare. They understand that a "good husband" shares housework/childcare, but they think that this means making a token effort here and there and they expect cookies for it. When you have the (reasonable!) expectation that things should be shared 50/50 or a proportional split based on working hours, they feel like you're extorting them. My ex used to tell me I was "taking the piss". I didn't understand at all why at the time, I do now.

That's a good analogy Bertie

Generally he's good - he cooks, he cleans, he looks after DS if asked and will play with him etc. But he'll refuse to change dirty nappies nine times out of ten, he'll refuse to bath DS unless he's having one himself.

It's frustrating because I know he is capable of being a better man, a better partner, essentially. But he says 'if you don't like it, leave'.

Not the hallmarks of a man with a healthy self-image!

See, by my standards that isn't "good", refusing to change a nappy is ridiculous. Sorry I know it's not the done thing to do but just for a comparison, DH comes home from working for 8 hours and immediately does the day's washing up, wipes down the kitchen before he relaxes. At the weekend or if he has a day off during the week he organises an entire clean of the house. I'm crap and sometimes clear the kitchen before he gets home or do some hoovering if the floor really bugs me, and I do all of the laundry (although he's currently been wearing the same jeans for about a week because I got behind...) I know he does more than he should be doing, I don't even work as many hours in a week as he does in a day I do more childcare and cooking/shopping, but DS is 6 so it's not the constant drudge of baby/toddler parenting that it was.

If you're under strain and he's not picking up the slack then he's not being a proper partner - the actual division isn't really important, it's about doing what you can to make each others' lives easier and knowing that you can rely on your spouse to pick up the slack when you really just can't for whatever reason.

Everyone is potentially capable of being a better person, parent, wife, husband, son, whatever, but we very rarely live up to our own potential. He's showing you what his normal is, he can't give you his best all of the time, much as it would be lovely to imagine a world where that best is normal.

What makes you say he's capable of being a better man? How do you know that?

When he says "if you don't like it leave" then that's your clue there that he is not a good catch.

Being unable to accept any criticism or to understand that your imperfect in any way is massively immature, and why would you want to be shackled to someone like that?

Larkin actually said 'man hands on misery to man'.

But anyone who takes that silly old sod as any sort of relationship guru is on a hiding to nothing.

Good to see OP gradually, gradually groping her way towards the point of her thread...

Your OP and the early replies were interesting as a thought exercise. I like those. It was clear from the middle of your first post, though, that you were trying to universalise something which is actually a personal & urgent issue.

You won't get your answers that way. Bertie's being very nice to you (as always) but I'm suggesting you start a more honest thread in Relationships.

I think you're knocking yourself out trying to improve someone who isn't being very nice to you.

He might be theoretically capable of being a better person. Or then again he might not. And is it really worth the bone-sapping work of trying to change him?

I'm aware I'm derailing my own thread here with detail. It's kind of by-the-by really. I know he has faults, I do, too. But the bigger picture does bother me.

I do actually genuinely mean this as a thought exercise. How can we ever move towards a happier society, where people can properly support each other when there is this underlying attitude of 'if you love them, let them be'?

I wouldn't want anyone to be fake, but there is surely no real pleasure to be gained from being selfish? Anyone who's ever done anything altruistically will know that.

I agree that sometimes you have to put yourself first. But at the expense of others? When you see someone else suffering? That's what gets me. When I see my DP do something inconsiderate it makes me sad to the person he's neglecting. But it also makes me sad to see him not being the man he (I really believe this) wants to be deep down.

Doesn't matter who he's with, that will always be toxic. It feels wrong to steer clear of the puddley mess - whether he's wearing roller skates or not.

But cultural don't you think it's pretty arrogant of you to come along to your DP, who clearly thinks he's fine, and tell him that you think he can be better and that he needs to do X Y and Z to be that better person.

What if he came along to you and said "Cultural I really believe our relationship would be better if you looked like . I truly believe you can look like her if only you try, and then our I would love you more and be more inclined to be less of a dick towards you. So what you need to do is dye your hair, get a boob job etc..." Would you just say "Oh thanks DP, of course I'll change!"