To think if childcare was free or heavily subsidised it would solve a lot of problems?

[Dormouse14]

I can't think who it wouldn't benefit.

A good nursery or childminder that was provided for by the state - as schools are - would enable parents who want to work to do so meaning there wasn't a reliance on benefits for single parents and they'd then be paying tax.

Some children would benefit greatly - I mean children who perhaps don't come from orderly homes.

I'm not saying everyone would have to send their child but if the option was there! wouldn't it make a difference to many people?

Other countries have amazingly good childcare systems at a lower cost which proves it can be done.

The money must come from somewhere. What do they spend less on?

I've no idea how the tax credits system works I'm afraid as I don't claim them.

However tax credits seems not to go far enough to covering costs if childcare if still costing more than some people can earn.

Statistically as I've said in my previous posts that's not the way the system seems to end up working here. There are still small, privately run childcare settings (and lots of them) who operate outside of government control.

Childcare workers aren't paid well are they.... That's what's ludicrous

so i'd like to know where the mismatch is. if childcare costs are high but workers aren't getting the money, where is it going?

here the going rate for after school pick up plus care is 20 pounds a days (that's for 2.5 hours from 3:30-6:00). there are people in other countries that pay that PER DAY. now this amount is being charged by childminders, so for 3 kids you can clear 60 pounds/day for 3 hours of work. of course, if you work all day you make much more.

so, where is all the money going?

We've had this discussion several times before.

The money goes in insurance, renting premises, employee costs, heating, food...... I'm not a cm or a nursery worker but I imagine the overheads are pretty high.

I doubt it's being misappropriated by the nursery manager, put it that way.

If childcare was subsidized, nurseries and childminders wouldn't be able to charge £1000 a month, for a start. There would be a cap on what LAs would pay.

And since when did having children become a lifestyle choice?

Well they could charge £1000 per month if they wanted, but the LA could only subsidise part of it. It's then up to parents whether they pay the shortfall for the more expensive nursery.

On a side note, do people really pay £1000 a month??

People wouldn't need to 'go back' to work, they'd just stay in work and have maternity leave, like many already do.

We wouldn't need loads of newly created jobs (not for this reason anyway) because people would just stay in the jobs that they had before they had babies.

The money could come from scrapping child tax credits, some of which already subsidises childcare, and from the increased tax intake from more people working and then having more money to spend. The government can afford to spend money on the things it decides are worthwhile. IMO, this would be worthwhile financially and socially.

Let's just have free food(oh wait a minute we do thanks to school dinners),free clothes,free everything and put our feet up as regards planning and providing for kids ourselves.

You know when you have kids somebody will have to loom after them.

look

I appreciate that longest - I just suspect that's the way it would work here if we had government provided childcare. It would either be that or we'd have a version of the system we have now in Scotland with partnership nurseries - my DD went to a private nursery - once she turned 3 she was entitled to a certain number of hours paid for but the value was considerably below what a decent private nursery cost for the equivalent hours.

Childcare overheads are very high. Childminders around here (city centre) charge £5 per hour. Realistically, to do it well you need more space than you would otherwise so you have the extra housing costs. You're heating the house all day, every day - you might snuggle under blankets yourself if it's cold but you can't expect other people's children to do that. You have to feed them - decent lunch, snacks, fresh fruit etc add up quickly. Trips, outings, memberships, entry fees. Insurance. Having to run a bigger car so you can transport them, along with enough different car seats to start your own branch of Mothercare . Providing good toys, equipment, a never ending supply of paint, pens, crayons (do you have any idea how much art equipment 6 kids can get through!), plus all the extra wear and tear on your home which takes an absolute battering.

Trust me, even a childminder who is full and doing well, once they take off all the expenses, isn't going to be making a mint.

What increase to the tax intake? Jobs don't mysteriously disappear because someone becomes a sahm someone else is taken on to replace them. If for example there are 1000 people and 750 jobs then no matter who the actual person is employed to do the job there will still be 250 without jobs, there will still be 750 paying tax.

Not only would the tax intake not increase the costs would increase because more people would be entitled to subsidized childcare than are now. You can also forget the idea that tax credits could be stopped because even with 2 working parents people can still be on a low enough income to have to claim them even when they can get free childcare from family members or by working alternate shifts.

That's the main problem I hear about over here Statistically.

A cm only earns about 3,50€ per hour per child. They make next to nothing and I've heard a few news items about the problem. They have to provide meals and snacks plus toys etc although mine doesn't seem to do trips out except to the shops or the park.

Second part of that was to writtenguarantee

Longest, people definitely do pay £1000+ per month. Here's one local nursery newtownnurseries.com/about-our-nurseries/fees which is £945 for full time, but London fees are much, much worse. 8-6 with a childminder at £5 per hour would be £50 per day

YABU, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that I think there are other priorities and more deserving causes. We are living longer nowadays and yet, social services are having their budgets slashed. I'd far rather see money being poured into supporting vulnerable people rather than to childcare.

Jesus longest, that's what, £2.75? How many children can one CM have?

Christ no wonder it's not worth going back to work.

I've been considering coming back to the uk but childcare cost is something that stops me.

I work full time and pay 130€ a month. I wouldn't get a week for that in the uk!

I think it's up to 6 children.

I don't know how they make a living. I think it's seen as a job for mums who already want to stay at home with their own kids, and take on a few more for pin money.

My cm is past retirement age and just loves the little kids. She's an absolute angel and does it more for the love of it the to pay the bills. I appreciate this is pretty unsustainable.

Daisy, as said up thread, it wouldn't be for non working parents to have a break. Although I do pay out privately 'to have a break' myself, 'abusing' my husband's measly childcare vouchers which must save us £20.80 in tax a month (we pay £400 a month for the childcare so the government probably get it, and more, back in tax from the nursery). I put my eldest in due to severe depression and my second went because it was really beneficial to DD1 and they both loved it, plus I have a chronic pain condition. I've also done voluntary work and self study to get back to work eventually. So I'll happily carry on 'abusing' the £20 per month tax relief. I don't think people realise how pitiful the childcare vouchers are, they were far from enough to make working add up financially.

And not every child is planned. I was expecting to be working for longer and getting a higher salary by the time I had children, so going back to work would be a no brainer. But these things happen to even the most educated and professional people who then have little choice but to become economically inactive.

The problem with the current situation is the impact on those on middle incomes, £25-50k who don't get tax credits but the salary doesn't cover the costs or leave enough left over to make it worth it, particularly in the SE. These are often educated professionals. The lower income families have help towards childcare and the very wealthy can easily afford it but are a small percentage. Should we discourage this middle income bracket from having children? If we do then we should expect immigration to rise further to pay the taxes to cover the pension and healthcare bills. It's usually those telling us to only have kids if we can ourselves who dislike immigration the most - Tories.

It varies a bit over here (I'm in Scotland), but in Scotland it's a maximum of 6, of whom a maximum of 3 may be pre schoolers (so roughly 3 under 5s and 3 over). And that includes your own children.

@StatisticallyChalleged

I don't doubt there are high overheads, but a childminder who works full time at the London rate of 6-8 per/hour/child with only 3 children can easily clear 150/day, which amounts to a reasonable income of 3000/month (note, that's only 3 children/day). you don't need a car in London. while there are many expenses, they are business expenses which can offset taxes.

So, how much do the expenses amount to then?

by the way, I am no doubting what you say, just trying to get a handle on the numbers.

They have subsidised daycare in Quebec. If you can get a spot it's 7/day. If you can't then you can claim back a percentage of daycare depending on earnings. The max I could claim this way was I think 25%. However taxes are very high to pay for it. Same as everything, you want higher nmw, better daycare subsidises, higher pensions and benefits? You get higher taxes.

oh, found an MN thread about childminding.

it appears that many gross about 20k and minus expenses take home 10k. although, someone pointed out that there is a bit of trickery involved since a lot of people will deduct for heating, but in fact that's not an added expense. etc.

that's not bad for not working full time, and of course you don't have to do years of training. and of course if you have children yourself you may have to care of them too. however, that isn't great given what I perceive as a difficult job with variable income.

I'm not in London, so I can't speak for London CMs I'm afraid.I don't have our income and expenditure to hand so this is missing loads

But:

-You can deduct 10% of income for wear and tear to the home - this might sound incredibly high but honestly it's not. You should see my hallway
-Gas and electric bill easily doubled (how much depends on house, but for us this was about £120 a month extra)
-Food bill - this varies but I'd guesstimate we spend an extra £2-300 per month (depends on whether there are school holidays so more mouths to feed for lunch.)
-We have to run a 7 seater - couldn't afford to buy outright so lease payments are £300 per month. Our old car was £100
-Childminder insurance, registration fees etc - don't know exact amounts
-Fuel - ferrying kids everywhere! - probably about £100 per month (and it's as efficient as a 7 seater gets!)
-toys, stationery, etc etc - we probably spend £150 a month on average, sometimes it's bigger purchases like the toy kitchen needing replaced, it's also changes as the kids advance
-We started up last year, and spent over £1k on decoration and playroom furniture
-membership at local softplay,£300 and outdoor place, £150, toddler group £10 a week I think
-trips - varies hugely as DH does loads with the kids during school holidays. I'd guess over the year probably £1000 at least, maybe more. Genuinely; he does zoo, wildlife park, safari park, trampolining...
-advertising costs - probably £200ish per year, more to start with
-cleaner - we have a cleaner every week because it is a struggle to keep everything to the standard the care inspectorate expect - £100 a month
-equipment; we own, I think, 10 car seats. Say an average of £120 each as we don't scrimp, if it's not good enough for our child it's not good enough for the mindees either. Double buggy £400, single buggy £200, Buggy board £50
-an extra room in our house - hard to quantify the exact cost of this but it wouldn't be possible here without an additional dedicated room. That probably adds something close to £100k to the purchase price of a house around here.

Also, don't get paid for sickness or holidays which needs to be averaged over the year.

that's not bad for not working full time

Most CM's do work full time. DH works 55 hours per week with children, plus admin etc. Even those who are "part time" are more likely to be doing say 3 or 4 days which would be the equivalent of a full time job