To think if childcare was free or heavily subsidised it would solve a lot of problems?

[Dormouse14]

I can't think who it wouldn't benefit.

A good nursery or childminder that was provided for by the state - as schools are - would enable parents who want to work to do so meaning there wasn't a reliance on benefits for single parents and they'd then be paying tax.

Some children would benefit greatly - I mean children who perhaps don't come from orderly homes.

I'm not saying everyone would have to send their child but if the option was there! wouldn't it make a difference to many people?

I am 100% for this.

Or at lease childcare costs coming from your pre tax salary as it is a direct cost of working.

And something for shift workers needs to be sorted out - how is a single parent who works changing shifts eg a nurse who has to do nights meant to find childcare under the current set up.

You're assuming there are infinite jobs though OP. There aren't. In fact there is a fairly finite job market.

So, if there is free childcare, and all the current SAHPs go out and get work:

1. wages will go down, as there is more competition for jobs so employers can offer less, and employers can also offer less because people are not having to cover childcare costs

2. less qualified/desirable employees (often the young or those with eg health issues) will struggle to find work and will end up on JSA.

3. even if all SAHPs could find work without 1) or 2) happening - in other words, more employed people at current wage levels - what would happen is that prices would go up. Because there would be more people earning and more 2 earner families, so retailers etc could charge more. House prices in particular would go up.

Oh and obviously 4) Taxes would have to increase in order to pay for all the childcare.

So overall... I don't think we'd be better off.

It would solve a lot of problems I agree, but why should the taxpayer fund the life choices of those of us who choose to have children ?
Surely if you want kids you should sit down before starting trying and work out how you will manage financially and practically after baby is born .
If you don't think you will manage then surely you start modifying your life (changing jobs, moving nearer to relatives who might be able to help etc) so that you CAN cope when the baby comes?

In Denmark the mother have 12 weeks maternity leave exclusively and the father has 6 weeks.
Then there is 52 weeks more where the parents can choose who takes what of the leave.
Child care is heavily subsidie and when I start work again we will be paying around 200£ for full time care. The care for children under 3 is day care where the child is looked after by a day carer in his/hers home together with around 3 other children.
Both day carer and professional working in kindergarteners earn a decent salary and have to have a degree in child care.

Minipie how do you account for the fact that that hasn't happened in other countries with subsidised childcare?

Because, maninawomansworld everyone benefits by more parents being able to go out and work. Directly and indirectly as I think has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

I don't think it would benefit children.

Young children need a parent around, not two parents in full time work.

Haven't read the thread, but I think free childcare would be far more beneficial to society than child tax credits and Child benefit, the former of which I think should be scrapped.

Free childcare would enable people to work to provide for their own families, and would create jobs in childcare. Of course, it would be expensive to provide high quality free care, for working parents only, but it would be worth it if it meant people took more responsibility for themselves. If CTCs were scrapped at the same time, people would be encouraged to only have the number of children they can afford on their wages, and they would be discouraged from conceiving children when one or both partners is out of work.

I don't know, I agree with marmite about being pressured to use it.

From what I've read about Sweden and other Scandinavian/Nordic countries, it seems that there is one way to rear your children, and that includes putting them in day care and going back to work. It's just what's done.

I think if it were free here (and I'm not from the UK) people would question why we weren't using it. And I wouldn't, because I don't want to.

My children will stay home with me until they are three, and then they will go to preschool 6 hours a week. When they're four, they'll go 12 hours a week. They'll enter full time school at 5. (Or six, in the case of my summer-born DS.) This is what I feel is best for them.

Not all children, but mine. There's certainly nothing wrong with full time childcare. Many people don't have a choice, and many people don't want to stay home with their DC, and why should they if they aren't suited to it?

But as someone who worked in a nursery, if I had my choice I'd never send my DC to one. And if the state regulates child care, that's what we'll mostly have, not child minders.

That being said, I think something has to give for parents who have to or want to work.

Why couldn't the state regulate childminders? My state regulated childminder has three kids plus an occasional grandchild. The parents get their subsidies, the childminder gets paid per child and everyone's happy.

Germany definitely doesn't encourage mothers to return to work. In fact is pretty frowned on to go back before the child is 3.

However, there is also an acceptance by government that those who do want to work should not be prevented from working by the cost of childcare.

We get 480 days parental leave at 80% of salary, although lots of employers top up to 100%. Most of these days can be taken by either parent and you have until the child is 8 to use them. Most mums I know use them to go part time for as long as possible. You can take them however you like so long as your employer has the right notice. Employees also don't have to lie and pretend to be sick if their child is ill as they get 'child sick pay' if they need to stay home.

Liverpool Germany gives child sick pay too, although it's not paid for by the government but comes out of your medical insurance.

I get 20 days per year. My employer docks me the days I use and I send the doctors note to my insurance company who repays me the money.

They could, longest. And obviously do in some places. :) I just think nurseries would be easier to regulate and so they would do that most often.

Do they have child minders much in France, or is it mostly nurseries?

We have 2 child sick days per every time the child is sick and 120sick days per year, although some of those are paid by the government

Definitely- childcare costs are ridiculously high in the UK and the evidence all seems to point to there being many advantages in countries where it's subsidised.
If parents prefer to SAH then fine, but a system which makes working more accessible for parents has got to be good

But there are kids who can't go to a childminder for whatever reason, disability especially, and that would make their carers feel more pressured when they already have enough to cope with perhaps?

Having said that I would LOVE the Danish model, happy to pay higher taxes if the services are comprehensive and quality. The trouble is who would trust our Governments to provide that, given their propensity to pop and buy a duck house instead?

CheerfulYank I see your point about nurseries.

My childminder isn't regulated as much as a uk cm would be I don't think. She goes to a "training day" yearly but afaik she's mostly left to get on with it. I'm not even sure if she has a crb equivalent, plus her husband cms with her and I've no idea if he's checked or not.

It seems to be left to families to pick someone they have a good rapport with, and if the parents are happy then great.

I can see how in the worst cases the cm could be up to all sorts and the parents wouldn't really know, especially with young children.

I'm not sure how you can really say that uk cms are any more reliable though. Any system is going to be impossible to make watertight.

I think it should fully be deductible from tax but not free. Many would abuse it like the vouchers and use it for a break from children rather than to work

Like WooWoo, I'd get rid of CB and CTC. The money would cover the lost tax. People would have to live within their means rather than the current I want it so the state can pay as its my right to reproduce.

It's not like people can't see the costs of childcare before having children, so many moan after re it being expensive or use it as an excuse not to work. A ten minute Google of costs vs salary is all it takes.

Please can I just say one thing? Nursery staff (and nannies/childminders) are not necessarily uneducated and unmotivated.

Most xhokdx

Yes we are regulated by ofsted. But they don't get involved in our contractual terms and conditions. In this type of scheme I would be told what, when, how much, how often and who to offer my services to.

That will teach me for not reviewing my post!

How so NickNacks?

Surely you can advertise and obtain customers the same way you always have done. Contracts are signed and the parent applies to the state for the subsidy. The subsidy is done on a points system (eg more points for lone parents) and the parents make up the shortfall.

It's then still open for some cms or nurseries to charge more or less. The parents just have to make up more or less of a shortfall.

It's still a free market. Just with help.

Yes we are regulated by ofsted. But they don't get involved in our contractual terms and conditions. In this type of scheme I would be told what, when, how much, how often and who to offer my services to.

Agreed NickNacks - the Care Inspectorate wouldn't know a happy well cared for child if it bit them on the arse! I really would not fancy trying to operate a care service where payment, contracts, fees etc were stipulated by the government. I also strongly suspect that any such service would be nursery based which isn't always the right environment - some children thrive, some do better in a home setting. I think we'd end up with a bunch of identikit nurseries.

I also don't think it would pay for itself - most people who would go back to work as a result of it (assuming they could find jobs) would not be those who were particularly high earners and would therefore pay enough tax to cover the cost. People who earn that much would have gone back to work anyway if they wanted to.

Well that's exactly what we have with the tax credits system, no?