to think mansion tax is an unfair tax on London and the South East?

[goodnessgracious]

I disagree with mansion tax but regardless it seems to me to be unfair on Londoners.

Aibu to think that it may also force some people to sell their properties who are income poor but property rich?

Actually the outrage on this thread is making me laugh. Now you know how the 'poor' feel.
Not a nice feeling is it?

What a patronising comment. I know how the poor feel. I have been poor. DH has been even poorer. We didn't have anything handed to us on a plate. We worked damn hard and studied damn hard and we are well off (not rich by a long shot). And for some reason we are vilified for daring to have a say on the way we are taxed.

Apart from the massive practical problems involved in assessing how much a house iS worth, this tax would introduce a fundamental and frightening change into the principles of tax in the UK

This is fundamentally an asset or wealth tax unrelated to a monetary gain. Once this principle is established, how long before it is applied to other assets?

Also, those who sneer, consider that if the tax Were set at 2% in 50yrs the tax government would have taken the whole value of the property.

What happens to those who have a massive mortgage? They are being taxed on something they don't actually own.

This is a bad policy based on the politics of envy. It is likely that the loss of stamp duty from people working the system to avoid tax would be greater than the income from a mansions tax and the admin and valuation costs are likely to be huge.

OP YANBU not only is it unfair on the SE it is unfair full stop.

Disclaimer: I do not own a 2 mill house!

I agree with whoever said that it will be everyone else next
People in London don't like it any more than you do.

When people in for eg Devon and Cornwall complain that their children can't afford to buy houses in the areas they grew up in because outsiders are coming in, buying them up as holiday homes and leaving them empty all the time, you think ahh poor people of Devon and Cornwall. Remember their houses have gone up in value too.

When it happens to the people of London, rich outsiders coming in and buying up our property, so our children can't afford to live here either, you think we should stop moaning because we have made money (on paper) from our houses.

Double standards?

Whether you like it or not, London is getting bigger all the time because it is where the jobs are. People in the country seem to massively resent this, I have no idea why as it is a free country and they could have lived in London and had a job that paid more and lived in a shoebox of a house that is worth £2m but not be able to sell it and move out because there are no jobs.

It's not about feeling sorry for the rich or trying to give the rich a taste of how the poor must feel.

It's about what's right or wrong. This tax to me is the slippery end of the wedge.

Comparing the mansion tax to the 'bedroom tax' (which isn't a tax at all) isn't comparing apples with apples. And doing so simply means you're completely missing the point.

ouryve that was in response to someone comparing mansion tax and bedroom tax.

The attitude of some people on this thread is disgusting. Just because you cannot afford to live on a £2million+ home doesn't mean those that do including myself should be penalised with extra tax. We already pay the top rate of tax and yes we work extremely hard

I have noticed this on mumsnet, anyone who lives an affluent lifestyle is frowned upon and vitriol is spewed at them. It's not our fault we live the way we do.

It's just the politics of envy Superwife.

According to some people on MN, anyone who earns more than the NMW and has more than two pennies to rub together should be taxed until they don't.

I think that's an unfair generalisation, Super. Isn't everyone working in fact hard-working?

There you go. People trying to have a discussion and of course it's envy. End of discussion.

niceguy it's disgusting isn't it? I am appalled by some peoples attitude to those who are more well off than average on here.

Lady someone up thread stated that we didn't work hard to be living in £2million+ homes.

If it's not envy, what is it?

It is bizzare the way some posters refuse to even open their minds a little bit to see the very real and damaging problems that can be associated with this just because some rich people will be affected by it.

Maybe it's just a lack of understanding, but surely that's no excuse when it isn't taken for one when people talk about other tax and benefit issues.

A friend of mine lives in a £2M house. She's paying a whacking great mortgage and the place is still pretty spartan.

Her neighbour lives in a £1.75M house with £2M of artwork in it. The neighbour never had a mortgage.

Which of these two should be paying more to prop up the NHS?

"When people in for eg Devon and Cornwall complain that their children can't afford to buy houses in the areas they grew up in because outsiders are coming in, buying them up as holiday homes and leaving them empty all the time, you think ahh poor people of Devon and Cornwall. Remember their houses have gone up in value too." - and remember that it was the 'indigenous' citizens of Devon and Cornwall who sold their properties at top dollar to second-homers, too. And continue to sell and do well out of the upward spiral of prices that this produces.

The house price rise is NOT of benefit to the vast majority of ordinary Londoners. Good transport or no, we accept serious compromises in quality of life (mostly around house-price related issues) to work in London - and in doing so contribute to an economy that , like it or not, is currently the financial engine of the country.

Personally I would love to see development in London and the SE cooled, and the jobs spread across the regions.

.This house is not yet in 'Mansion Tax bracket, but will be soon if prices rise like they are doing. It isn't even in a catchment for sought after schools, and you can easily see how an elderly couple could be living in a house this size that they bought for a modest sum 30 years ago - and they will now be hit for extra tax.

Look at the price of this! Again in Brixton. You would expect, would you not, for an 'ordinary' family to be able to buy a house that looked like that? And yet Londoners are 'lucky'? Ordinary Londoners with ordinary jobs like teachng, or nursing, or a manager of some description? Someone like you?

Ladywithlapdog - but that sure show the point, £400k in 2002, while 'quite a lot of money' could be a couple buying with 2 £40-50k salaries and some savings. That would be a high wage then, but doesn't follow that someone earning that sort of money in 2002 would be now earning enough to buy a multimillion house.

A quick google found an article in the Guardian from 2002 saying a senior registrar in 2002 earned approx £48k. So 2 senior registrars or 2 people with similar pay scale/level of income could afford that house in 2002, or lower level but with equity from a flat or starter home.

While that particular property has changed hands several times in the last 12 years, it goes to show the point, you will get a lot of people who had above average, but not 'super rich' wages who bought houses for 3.5 or 4x their incomes, or a bit more with a bit of equity behind them, who have just stayed put, plodded along and then suddenly found that on paper they are multimillionaires.

In the grand scheme of things, 12 years isn't a long time to stay in a family house. I don't believe the sort of people who could afford a £400k house in 2002 are the sorts of people who can afford a £2.5m house in 2014. I would be interested to know what that house was worth in 1994 and what sort of career would pay enough to buy it then - and what sort of earning potential those people would have now.

MaryW - the house I tracked above (the same road and size as the one linked to, I don't know if it's exactly the same), will have 'made' 1 mil profit in 8 years and now new owners looking at making another 1 mil in 4 years! The house price increase is too mad. I don't know that there are that many poorly elderly who suddenly find themselves falsely rich. For contrast, the average sale price on that road is under 200K for flats, so 2.5 is a lot by those standards too.

Lady...the house will only have 'made' the owners £1m in 8 years if they actually sell it for that. The fact of it appreciating doesn't magically grant the owners a spare £15k cash pa...

"We already pay the top rate of tax and yes we work extremely hard."

And those on NMW don't? This is the sort of statement that really gets up the hackles of those who do work extremely hard, yet struggle day to day to pay the bills and keep food on the table.

There seems to be this assumption by several on here that those who earn NMW could earn more, and have more highly paid jobs, if only they worked harder. This is bollocks.

I've worked minimum wage jobs, the sort of jobs where you can't even go to the loo when you want to, the sort of jobs where you're shouted at and belittled for an hourly pay roughly equivalent to what many people wouldn't blink at paying for a sandwich. It's shit.

I'm lucky - I now have a good job and don't have to work two NMW jobs back to back to pay the rent any more. But I remember how hard it was, which is why it annoys me no end when high earners bleat on about working hard.
Yes, you do work hard, but you get handsomely remunerated for it. Others work just as hard as you yet spend each month choosing between food and bus fares.

It sold for 1.5 mil, bought for 400k. So yes, a clear million there in 8 years. I don't know if this or similar will go for the asking price of another million. And I looked back on that street and the closest and oldest semi I could find sold for 200k in 1996. That was a lot of money then too. FWIW I bought my first flat then for 125k with DH. Two high income earners with 20% deposit. So yes, I think you needed quite a good standard then too.

Joss if you read my post correctly it was in response to some implying that we don't work hard to live in our homes.

Not once did I imply that NMW workers don't work as hard because if I did then there would be outrage however when the majority of posters on this particular thread agree that we should pay more tax on our homes then it's met with universal agreement. Double standards indeed.

I agree MrsJoss - the implication that wealthy people who have earned their wealth work harder than those less well off is insulting and clearly nonsense. But many of the hard working who chose to live and make a life in London have an asset worth far more than they paid for it and it may not near any relation whatsoever to their income. Why should one family living in London where their property has appreciated massively pay this tax when another on exactly the same income and an equivalent house elsewhere in the country not be subject to it?

'near' - 'bear'

I think some people on this thread are being very short-sighted.

So, a London tax forces people to sell up and move out. They sell their house for more money than it would be worth in further out areas. They move into YOUR area, house prices shoot up, school places are heavily over-subscribed, local people are forced out because they can't afford to live there... and so it goes on.

It's happening in our town at the moment. People are moving away to cheaper (for now!) towns because they can't afford the house prices in the area any more. It means there is a shortage of teachers, nursing staff, postal workers etc. because they can't afford to live here any more.

We already pay the top rate of tax and yes we work extremely hard

Plenty of people who don't pay higher rate tax work extremely hard, too.

The 2 mil tax would affect a relatively small %, unlikely to cause massive population shifts. Then there's always rich foreigners who'll come in. Good for the economy innit?

yes ouryve they do...what is your point though?

Lady it's not good for the economy when the rich foreigners don't pay stamp duty/council tax or live in the properties, therefore not supporting local businesses or being part of a community....