To pack my 12 year old twin son's bags and dump them at the SS office?

[UpInTheAirAgain]

Lighthearted not.

Really either they are going to kill each other, cause me a heart attack, or I will cause them irreparable damage by strangling them.

They are adult sized with feet to match and enjoy kicking 10 barrels of shit out of each other. They hate each other and unfortunately as they have to live with each and share a room and go to and from school together, there is no escape for either of them from each other.

They also won't sleep until midnight most nights so we start the day with pubescent high pitched squealing that they want to stay in bed, they won't get dressed unless they are told 20 million times, 'forget' to brush teeth, hair, pack bags, put PE kits in bags, clean shoes and lets not mention all the stuff they lose at school - football boots, swimming kits, lunch cards, locker keys and I have to pay for replacements. Add to that all the detentions they get for being late and not doing their homework which makes me feel like a shit mother.

At home, they are utter soap dodging, insolent nightmares unless they are connected to an electrical device.

To think that I gave up my career to stay at home with them for 6 years as we could not afford the fees for them to be in full time nursery and after school care for our older DC and I could not bear to leave them. I am an utter mess with the stress as we have never had any family support.

I do love them wholeheartedly but I have just had ENOUGH! Advice on how to get them to adulthood alive appreciated!

No advice but they may well be lovely by the time they are 20. Think long term and keep your fingers crossed.

CAn you put the younger DC in a room with one of the twins and separate them that way?

I have always been totally anal about treating them equally even buying them two of the same thing so they don't bloody fight.

That is treating them the same, not treating them equally. They are different people.

Which one to send to the 'poor' school? Toss a coin and be prepared to pay for a tutor.

How old are your other children?

Do you have room to split them up, even temporarily? The one who has a shower and goes to bed gets the bedroom, the other gets a sleeping bag on the sofa. Or has to sleep in with one of the younger ones.

Or maybe the one who doesn't go to bed on time doesn't get a lift to school.

Which one to send to the 'poor' school? Toss a coin and be prepared to pay for a tutor.

I think that's a flippant attitude to take to a child's education. Surely being sent to a school with poor standards, probably on discipline as well as education, would only make the problem worse? Feeling like one child was given better educational opportunities would certainly make the rivalry worse. A few hours tuition isn't a substitute for an education.

Honestly - as a parent of 2 sons, 2 years apart, the single most effective thing you could do would be to give them separate rooms, even if it meant they each shared with a different family member.

Then remove all electrical devices. They are 12. There is no reason on this earth that their parent should not be in control of all electrical devices in the house.

Shit. Just be the parent. I mean, who wrote 'get them a punishment phone'? Hell. Just take the fucking phones off them.

If they want to stink and have green teeth, let them. That'll end when they discover girls. But you HAVE to be the adult in your own home. If your DH loses his rag with them, let him. Maybe he will come up with a consequence that works.

Can you tell I HATE those parents whose kids seem to think they have equal say in what happens in the house ??

Different rooms has made a huge difference to my DDs (now 13 and 15, were 11 and 13 when we made the change) who fought like cat and dog (not physically - I won't have that). They are also at different schools, although I see that is not available to you. I assume, at least, that they are in different tutor groups - twins usually are.

Recently, my DDs have started to discover common interests and friends. They are now much closer than they were before.

I agree that treating them the same is not the same as treating them equally. In a way, it's like saying that actually, they are not individuals, but that one twin is just the same as the other. Treating children fairly does not mean treating them the same, it means giving each of them what they need.

Nomama, it was made quite clear in my post that IF THEY NEED A PHONE, they should have a punishment phone. It's clear you didn't read the whole post.

Divide and conquer is what worked here. My two oldest boys are eighteen months apart. All privileges so TV/consoles/phones etc I had complete control over and they would be removed for bad behaviour. Pocket money would be docked for insolence and grounded for not being back on time/not answering their phone etc. It took very few occasions before they decided that keeping me happy was the key to them being happy tbh. They are good friends now.

You need them in separate rooms. I have twin brothers. They fought physically (basically kicked the shit out of eachother) until they were 20+ YEARS old! They went to the same uni and my mum was shitting it worrying that they were going to house share and kill eachother. Fortunately they got different accommodation.

No Trollsworth - I did read it and NO 12 YEAR OLD NEEDS A PHONE!

Separate them - different rooms, schools, routines, activities, holidays. Don't treat them like a unit - don't call them 'the twins' ; treat them as individuals as far as humanly possible. Spend one-on-one time with them individually, both you and your H. Don't tell one about the other except general scant info.

Yy tough but find a way. I am a twin(condensed post bcs lost longer post). Pair (ARF) everything back to basics re screens etc. Get tough, military operation. Save them from one another. Treat them as individuals in their own right

I'm probably speaking to my parents here, n years later (too late).

tbh it's going to be a long and hard slog which should have been started approximately 12 years ago.....did you expect them to turn into charming well rounded adults magically over night with no input from yourself?

Back to toddler basics...... please, thankyou, no fighting, no backchat, no opinions, no luxuries, compliance with basic hygiene, and helping around the house. When and only when they choose to rejoin family life you can discuss reintroduction of conversation, choices, hobbies, lifts out to places, wifi etc

I have two boys, one of whom is 12 so I can understand your frustration. They are constantly trying to kill each other.

I have not read the entire thread, so if this has already been suggested or discussed I apologise in advance.

If they enjoy football and swimming they might really enjoy Air or Army Cadets, which ones are near you? If you have a Royal Marines Cadet unit near you they are brilliant as well.

I have one in Air Cadets and one in Army Cadets. The amount of days outs, camps, activities etc., they do is staggering and subs/monthly fees are minimal. If you are claiming benefits then Air Cadets will possibly fund week or fortnight residential camps for you, not so sure about Army Cadets.

You will see a huge change in them very quickly if they join, it is often the making of many a teenager!

Good luck

Is there a time when they did behave well at home? Do they behave well at school (apart from leaving things behind at home)?

The thing is, it is hard to tell from your post wether they have ALWAYS been like this - and it is hard to get back from 12 years of it - or whether this is a recent phase.

If it is a recent phase, think back. What changed? Was it the advent of electronic gadgets? If so, then explain to them that you are going back to that point, and they will have to earn the privilege back without abusing them. Tbh, I'd simply terminate all phone contracts and remove handsets, and have wifi on only for the amount of time it is needed for efficient homework completion - or if school offers a homework club, explain that all work reqwuiring the internet has to be done at school, and simply have no wifi at home for them to access.

Talk to school. Agree a joint strategy, especially as this is likely to be affecting their work at school too. Sanctions that work cross home and school can be effective - and as a previous poster has said, find the 'currency' that works for them, which may be different for each.

Violence at home is a no. That is what I would reserve the toughest sanctions for - whether that be removal of privileges, removal of money (direct or indirect such as phone contracts), simple physical separation including, if necessary, removal to separate rooms or inside / outside, refusal to take them to clubs etc. A talking to by an exernal adult - a club leader, school head, police youth worker even - might also be effective, as might be the sufggestion above of removal to a different school. The one who is sent there - easy: the one who most consistently refuses to improve. take them both round, get them both taljked to by the other head.

This will be MUCH harder if it is a pattern that has been going on for years. A child who is used to consistent sanctions and boundaries but has temporarily gone off the rails is likely to be reined in more easily than a child who has never had such things and wuill need tio be taught them right frm the beginbning at an older age.

That sounds really chaotic, I hope things improve for you. I had a thought, it's very drastic but could you (for a few weeks) tell them at 9pm you are turning the power off in the house so they'd better be in bed by then? I doubt they'd believe you at first and it would probably escalate their behaviour but after a little while if you were consistent and calm I bet they'd be jumping in bed before 9. Then if they were getting better sleep you might have more luck changing the other behaviours? You could calmly do it as well,... Just say to them 30 min to power out, 10min to power out ok power out now. No shouting, nothing. (You'd have a little torch in your pocket of course), and then you wouldn't have to escalate and be shouting at them "get in your bloody bed" etc.

I have DTs who are 6. I can solve the mystery of where the twins are that get on ok- they are the ones with an older brother who fights constantly with whichever of them is around!

Those of you on the confiscating gadgets line: I agree with you BUT I'm one who knows how difficult this is. In our house sometimes the only respite from continuous fighting is to give them a gadget. It may not be ideal but it works.It its very difficult (if one child has ADHD and is in a cycle of activity) to calm a situation down without this distraction sometimes; even if you're trying oh so hard to be consistent and keep to your own rules. Really really difficult.

Mine are younger though

Remove food and electricity.

It brings them to their knees

It sounds really difficult. My twin teenagers get on fine and share a room. We never need anything like shouting or punishments or anything like that. It's very peaceful here but I don't have a magic solution and am probably just lucky they are as they are. It is rare anyone shouts. Can you not just leave it up to them when they have a shower? If they start to smell people at school will soon tell them and they'll start washing more. Take a step back. Don't sweat the small stuff.
We all go to bed at the same time in this house at 10pm in the week including me so the house is totally silent then. They can do what they like in their own room after that but they go to sleep soon after.

Children copy adults. I suspect this home - my daughter, my older son and the 2 teenage twins is an oasis of calm because no one really shouts ever and people are fairly quiet. That may just be a family personality however so cannot be moved into a different family dynamic. We try to get everything ready for school the night before and we leave at the same time for school every day. My twins are utterly different and seem to accept each other's differences. I find they are closer than their older non twin siblings are.

I would start with telling them off a lot less.
I would make sure you get up to bed very early so the house is quiet early on. Food is very important - I try to make sure ours have lots of good healthy foods as that affect mood. Cut back on sugar. Have them drink only water. if sharing a room is a problem make the living room the bed room of one perhaps if that might be possible?

Well how lovely for you Greengrow

My DH is a twin and has never ever got on with his brother, they have conflicting personalities and have spoken a handful of times in the last thirty years. When DH's family has get togethers they ignore each other. Do not assume that because they are twins they are going to get on, it isn't always the case. Separate them as much as you can.

My DS is nearly 12 & has been well brought up, taught to be respectful, had firm boundaries put in place.... But he can still be a little sod when he wants to be, I can't imagine there being 2 of him.

My one switches off if I keep banging on at him, I got into a negative spiral with him this morning and I really regret it.

The only thing that works for us is escalating levels of privilege removals, otherwise he just takes the piss. But he is a child and his brain isn't fully developed yet. He does get angsty & stomp off but calms down and thinks things through and apologises.

I think you need to sit them down and explain your expectations and ask them why they are not fulfilling them. Explain how much they are hurting you with their behaviour. Then tell them the consequences if they continue to be immature and disrespectful.

No screens or phones until they are showered and homework and chores are completed and everything is ready for the next day.

Any bad behaviour (especially violence)& technology & pocket money removed.

Remove stuff from the house if necessary.

Same goes for dicking about at bedtime. If one disturbs the other he can come and sleep on an air bed in your room for a night or 2 until he behaves.

Just found this thread again. In answer to the question about whether they have always been like this - DTS2 has had behavioural issues from toddlerhood. He was only recently diagnosed as having learning difficulties with possible ADHD despite me fighting for him to be assessed from the age of 4. He was threatened with exclusion from Primary school a few times. They had Ed Psychs in, he was on School Action+ from Yr1 and they just wrote him off as badly behaved in direct contrast to DTS1 who was in the top set and an absolute angel.

DTS1 was always very placid and well behaved until the last year or so when he hit puberty. Now he fights back. DTS2 has landed him in A&E a few times pushing him about while jumping everywhere. He used to literally be bouncing off the walls but has improved with age. I had him in all sorts of clubs but he would never follow instructions so they were pointless.

I admit DTS2's behaviour has turned me into a shouty old bag with very little tolerance.

They have had boundaries which are always enforced. The problem is that they dont care! The Xbox was stashed away for a month until today. With regard to separate rooms, we have tried that many times but they end up in the same bed the next morning regardless. Crazy as it sounds what with them trying to kill each other in the day!

We have never referred to them as the 'twins', just as 'the boys'. Most people dont even twig that they are brothers let alone twins with one being dark and 5ft 8 and the other being fair and 5ft 4! I meant I buy them the same things as one inevitably wants what the other has and I never want either of them to feel any favouritism.

Anyway thanks for all the replies. Things are calm at present. That is the key I think I need to keep calm! I know they block me out and I am just background noise to them. Sigh.