To ask you to object to this? Pre-paid benefits cards

[LuisSuarezTeeth]

a step too far

We're talking about human beings.

Thanks Arsenic and those that have already signed.

Over 4,000 signatures now.

Signed

LINK TO 38 DEGREES PETITION

It's a terrible idea.

When I claimed job seekers i was under 30 so couldn't get full housing benefit therefore I had to top up from my job seekers to be able to keep my home.

If I had had to use this system I would have lost my home.

Furthermore I had to repay a debt on a career development loan out of my job seekers. Pic could not defer payment. Would the government have preferred me to be in arrears with he loan company and to have a bad credit rating and suffer more in future instead as I would have done if this had been the system then ?!?

Signed.

Signed. Not on benefits, but my DH has been in the past due to mental health issues and anyone can hit a rough patch. It would cost us far more to shop in big supermarkets, not least because our nearest is 7 miles away. I am pregnant and have saved a huge amount of money on baby stuff by trawling gumtree. Just because someone needs help from the state does not mean they are irresponsible and unable to budget wisely. The only people this scheme would be good for are big businesses.

I am sufficiently ancient to remember when 'family allowance' was paid for the second child, 90p per week, plus milk tokens which could only be used for, funnily enough, milk. I don't remember feeling I was a lesser human because I could not exchange them for fags or booze.

Would the government have preferred me to be in arrears with he loan company? - Yes. The government wants us all to be in debt.

Tricky - I've no objections to milk tokens for families with children. What's that got to do with the proposal her discussed?

In the sense, garlic, that the milk tokens were a benefit directed to specific purchases. Though on a much smaller scale, obviously, I can't see that the principle is different from that of the new proposals.

The scale is the difference, Tricky. If a couple of quid out of Child Benefit were paid as milk tokens, it would piss off parents of dairy-intolerant children but nobody else. If the WHOLE of an adult's income is paid in prescribed purchases, that adult has been robbed of basic choice. I'm sure you can see the difference ... but, if you really can't, imagine your own household income is replaced by a Tesco card. Happy about it?

I once joked that my entire salary should be paid to Tesco, since that seemed to be where it all went.

Milk is milk is milk Tricky

Where do you shop?

Oh! Oddly my grandparents didn't feel that way about ration cards...

I have always had mixed feelings about this. Is it degrading, or is it actually quite freeing?

a) it would help the government work out how much it really does take to feed a family - they would have to do something with the data they would collect. So food benefits could be regionalised... each according to need, proper equality.

b) it might even highlight more educational needs. Parent buys shite food, no variety, all processed, no fresh fruit and veg. Well offer them some targetted help. It could highlight special offers, get bonus vouchers etc. Just like a loyalty card.

but

b) would it price some local shops out of existence? No, as there is no real reason for a Tesco only card. Anywhere that takes plastic should be able to accept it - they thought much the same about Lottery machines once upon a time.

c) would it make food shopping really expensive, pricing poor families out of variety? No, as there would be as much choice as there is now, see b).

And that leaves the 'Human Rights' issue. Well, no one complains about pre-paid much else, like rent, court fines etc (naughty me to make that assumption). Well, if it is spendable anywhere it just becomes a credit card for food. No shame, no stigma - unless someone really works at it!

All that leaves you to complain about is that is seems Draconian, a bit Big Brother. Well, benefits are given by the grace of society, it is not a human right. Currently we are losing battle with controlling the spend fairly. Nor do we have the ability to accurately measure the need of individuals, regions or even the nation as a whole. And we are also losing the ability to continue paying for it.

So, we, those giving the benefice, have a need to know more about where it goes, how it can be given more effectively.

I absolutely hate the automatic negativity about such proposals. Why can't people look past the bleedin' heart crap and think it through a bit more?

we, those giving the benefice, have a need to know

So you view me as a recipient of your charity?
What about the insurance scheme I paid into for 35 years, is that null & void?

If you need to know how I spend my insurance payout, why have you never asked me? You know, done the research?
Taking away my freedom to run my own life, just so you can gather data, seems ... a trifle odd, to put it politely.

Everyone got ration cards, though. Not just targeted segments of the population.

Frozen veg is often far cheaper and with less waste.

Pensions are benefits, too. No one is suggesting pre-paid cards for those.

Well, benefits are given by the grace of society, it is not a human right.

No, they are paid for by everyone, for everyone in need.

Benefits are hard enough to live on as it is. If you remove the ability to shop around, use local markets, take advantage of offers, you make it even harder.

... not yet, Left!

Nope! But you can read it that way if you like.

YOU are the one in receipt of YOUR previous benefice. That's how it is supposed to work. Social Security and all that.

But that has been eroded and, if we want to continue with a Social State then we need to be able to measure and give each according to need.

You have no need to feel patronised. You paid in, you take out when you have need. That is how it is supposed to work. But in order for it to continue to work changes need to happen. With all of the technology we have at our fingertips we can more closely monitor expenditure.

Why should we continue with an outmoded and inefficient system? Oh yes, to avoid people taking umbrage and feeling insulted. Well that only happens because the DM and other benefit damning people and organisations get a lot of time and attention.

Anyone who is in receipt has a need and so should have their needs met - that is the state in which we live. Don't blame me because some sections of society want you to feel ashamed. I don't. I just want all benefits to be given as needed, efficiently and well.

So why is this only being applied to some benefits, not pensions, the largest slice of the welfare budget?

I see some of you really went to town to cherry pick the meaning in my post. I think I addressed much of the comments that came immediately after it.

And I think pensions could be looked at too. Fuel allowance and the Twirly ticket would also be better allocated if need could be established.

LuisST, since you ask, though the relevance of my own shopping habits is lost on me, Lidl and Tesco.

Garlic, as Nomana points out, the scheme could cope with any card reading shops, not just Tesco. It seems that the workings of a similar scheme in Australia is being studied. 50-70% of the benefit there is paid via a similar benefit card, the rest is cash, so to talk of 'entire household income' being replaced is just daft.

But they are not being looked at. Only these other benefits.

Perhaps I'm misreading the suggestion that such an imposition would be helpful for data gathering. To me, it looks as though I'm being seen as less than human, in that my life may be controlled in order to see what I'll do. Mass human experimentation is not usually undertaken without exhaustive prior studies. As I mentioned, no large studies have been done on welfare recipients' budgeting.

But they could be. If there is going to be change it cannot be total, overnight. It will have to happen piecemeal.

I don't disagree that all benefits should be treated in a similar manner, but there has to be a modicum of common sense in the application.

Whatever the benefit IDS etc had chosen to look at first, the reaction would have been the same ' oh, start a petition, it's not fair'. Well, it is a given that it is not fair. I don't want fair. I want a system that gives according to need.

That and, as Trickydecision points out, such a scheme is being looked at elsewhere. There is a need for change.