to not want my kid to go to a mosque ...again!

[moaningminnie2]

We live in North Yorkshire and every year the village Cof E school run a whole-school trip to Bradford.First they went to a mosque, then the following year a Gurdwara and then a Hindu temple, and now this year back to a mosque again.They do that in the morning, then have lunch and a run around in a park, and then in the afternoon a quick visit to 'Bombay Stores' and then back home for school pick up. DD and her friends don't want to go ( they went in Y2) and I resent having to pay £13 for each of my 2 kids at the school.Whaty is the point of going to the same place again, and do the school get 'Brownie Points' for doing this sort of RE trip.

...but visiting a concentration camp does make it all very, terribly real in a way books don't always.

And, apart from anything else, places of worship can be very beautiful.

Not a fan of any religion that discriminates against women, bet they don't cover that on the visit

Cross-post [smile} Which is fine only you're more eloquent!

I'm also another mmnetter, who wears hijab, and know over a 100 women who wear hijab. I don't know a single person who has been forced to wear hijab, rather I know quite a few whose parents/husband don't want them to wear hijab but they want to and do!

My DH wouldn't dare comment on how I dress. It is against our faith to go around telling people how to dress and how to live. It is up to each person how much they choose to practice, and no one has a right to enforce it on others.

What goes on in Saudi Arabia and other countries is a cultural and political issue, disguised under religion. Please don't brush us all with the same paint brush.

Based on some of the racist comments on this thread, I think it's the parents they need to take the mosque, not the kids!

How interesting that my post upthread was deleted.

For those who missed it I took issue with the idea that women are not 2nd class citizens in Islam. I referenced the burka, the ban on driving cars in Saudi Arabia, that women's evidence is half that of a man, and that women have been stoned for being raped.

I must now add to this that another problem with Islam is that any criticism of it is censored. The pernicious misconception that Islam is a race and that criticism of its ideology is RACIST serves no-one. Get a grip Mumsnet mods.

Saudi is a slightly problematic example, because the treatment of women there is very much culturally and politically driven (it was radically different as recently as the 1970s) with an extremist religious rationalisation laid over the top.

This thread is depressing. I'm going to hide it

www.cracked.com/article_18911_5-ridiculous-things-you-probably-believe-about-islam.html#
www.30factsaboutislam.com/

There are plenty of crackpots in every religion and most have their extremist sects/interpretations of scripture. I applaud the school in question - if nothing else, repeating the visits will hopefully ensure that the children who attend learn to question popular mass media and the views of the ignorant and misinformed.

Lots of false logic going on on this thread, following this kind of pattern: misogyny exists in Muslim countries, therefore misogyny is an integral part of Islam, therefore Muslims are misogynists, therefore my child can't go to a mosque.

The oppression/coercion of women

1. takes place all over the world, including Britain
2. is committed by men, as part of patriarchal cultural norms
3. is not limited to one demographic, be that colour, religion, culture
4. is more prevalent in countries where access to education is limited

So Muslims are by no means excluded - pretty sure plenty of Muslim men are misogynists, but also 100% sure that plenty of misogynists aren't Muslim.

Islam makes it quite clear that misogyny/the abuse of women is not acceptable. You've also got Muslim women telling you first hand that they've not experienced oppression from the people you're accusing of oppression.

Choosing to ignore that and insisting on attributing crimes/injustice against women committed by Muslims/in predominantly Muslim countries (and let's remember that Muslims, like any other demographic, aren't a homogeneous group, k thx) as being caused by their religion shows up a pretty clear agenda.

Treadsoftly,
I applaud the school in question - if nothing else, repeating the visits will hopefully ensure that the children who attend learn to question popular mass media and the views of the ignorant and misinformed.

If you were to apply this generally, do you mean when schools visit religious institutions as part of their RE syllabus, the children are allowed to question the views of the ignorant and misinformed (i.e. the proponents of these bastions of misogyny) or are you referring to people who disagree with them as as ignorant and misinformed.

As someone said, religions and various supernatural beliefs have been a huge part of peoples cultures, since we walked upright. There was no choice. In the past you were ostracised or worse if you didn't conform. Or had very little understanding of or control in the world around you. It doesn't mean they can peddle any old view and not be open to criticism.

Step - round my way I see very little girls wearing the niqab. That's not 'right' in Islam, is it? I'm assume that's a societal thing rather than religious?

See, this is where I wish I knew more!

DH is from a country where the vast majority of the population are muslim. His mum and oldest SIL wore the local form of niqab not one of the 40 or so other adult females in his family wear a niqab and there are some that don't wear a head scarf either. DH dislikes the niqab but respects a woman's right to wear it if she wants.

Also when I speak to him or his friends about Saudi Arabia (he has been there on Hajj) he doesn't like it at all. He certainly doesn't see it as a model for the muslim world. He thinks its a corrupt and oppressive regime.

River
There is no requirement in Islam for a woman to cover her face. Its not forbidden but its not required either. In DH's country you rarely see a young girl wearing a headscarf as covering your hair only applies after puberty.

NO I am not sick of people who tie catholicism to paedophilia because what happened was so awful that it warrants us looking into our religion and asking why this could have happened and thinking about how we can prevent similar things happening in the future by re-thinking how beliefs/power/control work in our religion

What an absolutely brilliant attitude, if I may say so ... it's surely this kind of insight which is so sorely needed in ALL religions

For me, Islam is no different to other world religions; granted there are maniacs, oppressors and the downright deranged, but let's not forget the countless millions of perfectly ordinary, decent muslims living entirely normal lives

For the sake of all decent people I think it's important to challenge real bigotry, but I also believe it's worth considering the genuine disquiet felt about some religious practices and cultural traditions, rather than flinging accusations and insults which help nobody and simply inflame the situation further

that's what I thought, Chaz, thanks for confirming. I find it quite upsetting to see 4 and 5 year old girls covered up in this way, that's can't be their choice, surely? But equally, I'm not going to blame Islam for some communities' misinterpretations.

sorry, I should say - they are not wearing the niqab, they are wearing the hijab.

The difference is catholic priests weren't abusing children specifically because the bible told them to.

Orthodox Muslims, who treat women like dirt and cut people's heads off for not being believing in Allah say they are doing it specifically in the name of their faith.

Surely there's a pretty clear distinction.

I think some little girls cover up to 'be like mummy' but it is a cultural rather than religious thing. Nowhere could a 4 or 5 year old be viewed in a sexual way, so I suspect it is merely tradition dressed up unquestioningly as 'god says so'.

I am seeing more and more women covering their faces (I am in London) - not just the usual Saudi tourist who have generally gone home by now, but UK residents, and not all women from the ME.

And oddly their black gowns are showing more and more detailing - a piece of black lace here, a coloured band there, sometimes even some little sparkly crystals, so I am not sure where they are coming from (in a religious way, not literally).

I don't agree with covering the face - culturally in the UK its not what people do. Plus face coverings of any kind gives me the willies.

River, I specifically remember being 4/5 and wanting to wear hijab. My mother wasn't keen but I was dying to wear one.

I wouldn't want my DD to wear one at that age, even if she wanted to, because sadly I know people will judge me.

Emily, orthodox Muslims don't do that. And it's ignorant to suggest they do.

Not sure it is as simple as that Big old. What about the legal codes of Pakistan and Afghanistan in relation to women. Rape, adultery etc. I read somewhere that there are many women in prison who were raped (and became pregnant) because they did not have the required number of witnesses and were accused of adultery. This is directly from the Koran, isn't it? Not just cultural. Also in relation to the non equivalence of women's testimony with men. This is misogyny and abuse at state level. Enshrined in a legal code.

I wasn't going to specifically pick out Islam, but you are writing about it. Women who practice Islam in the West are not living in states that promote or enforce that religion's tenets in their everyday life. Like gender segregation in restaurants as in Saudi etc. Experiences and the story of women in countries where Islamic rules and legal codes are in place may be more pertinent wrt that. Isn't the Sultan of Brunei introducing a sharia penal code to include stoning? I'd say that'd fairly effect your life, as a woman.

Also, the Jewish sect men who refused to sit next to women on the aeroplane. Imagine if a group of people said they couldn't sit next to somebody because they were Jewish or black. Would the airline have accommodated this desire?

I want to live in a secular society. Where religious prejudices don't affect how I'm viewed in the eyes of the law or in my everyday life. But that is miles away from children visiting religious institutions whose proponents get to relay their tenets to them, without any critical analysis, I presume.

THE Catholic church is of course deeply disturbing not sure why its always trotted out along side threads like this?

However as far as I am aware, we are allowed to critise and talk openly about the problems with the faith and or the hideous crimes associated with it, without fear of reprisal or death threats?
Is the same of Islam?

I know some Dutch cartoons sparked global out cry?

Are we allowed to openly and without fear, cristise Islam?

You've also got Muslim women telling you first hand that they've not experienced oppression from the people you're accusing of oppression.

Maybe on this thread but many posters on MN have said they have felt oppressed by it.

Why criticise anyone's religion at all? You're blessed enough to live in a country where you can choose your own religion, so what do you care? I see things I can object to in every religion but no one is forcing me to follow one of them so what do I care?
The only thing that concerns me is that everyone living in the U.K. enjoys freedom of choice. I am upset when I read about the presence of sharia courts or when I see little girls wearing veils. However my issue is with the people who have caused that, not the entire religion.

Knitted, which Muslim woman on MN said she felt oppressed by the hijab?

It is a piece of cloth, for goodness's sake!

Lem we live in a country where the church has political representation and where members of various religions frequently petition to deny me bodily autonomy on the basis of their religious beliefs. So I feel quite comfortable with criticising those beliefs, thanks.

So it seems according to the posters on this thread that none of the Muslim countries around the world are actually practising the real Islam. That the laws and behaviours seen uniquely in Islamic countries are the result of "patriarchy", "culture" and "education". All of which I suppose must develop in a vacuum in which religion has had no part to play in their formation.

It is interesting too how all these countries and their populations practice a very similar kind of misogyny and brutalism that seems to involve the enforcement of modesty and restrictions on behaviour of women, the oppression of gays and other minorities, violent retribution in the form of beheadings and stonings, and the enshrining of religious law. This must surely be coincidental though, the result of pure chance! It definitely isn't because there's some sort of book that all these countries and their inhabitants are following.

For those of us unenlightened ones it would be instructive for our scholars on here to point out where the real Islam can be found. Where are the Muslim countries that are actually practicising Islam? You know, the real one? And given how the real Islam is the "Religion of Peace TM", and nothing but good flows from it, I'm assuming these countries will be positive utopias?