to not want my kid to go to a mosque ...again!

[moaningminnie2]

We live in North Yorkshire and every year the village Cof E school run a whole-school trip to Bradford.First they went to a mosque, then the following year a Gurdwara and then a Hindu temple, and now this year back to a mosque again.They do that in the morning, then have lunch and a run around in a park, and then in the afternoon a quick visit to 'Bombay Stores' and then back home for school pick up. DD and her friends don't want to go ( they went in Y2) and I resent having to pay £13 for each of my 2 kids at the school.Whaty is the point of going to the same place again, and do the school get 'Brownie Points' for doing this sort of RE trip.

Please don't pull me on my spelling, simple mistake. Your statement "why are your biographies more informative than actual people" is quite astounding. In case you didn't know, biographies are written by "real people", and no I can't remember any of the names, I could easily google them but why should I. You seem to be implying that no such books exist. Wow.

canyou

We're talking about people confusing Islam and fundamentalist Islam.

Fine to question fundamentalist Islamic nutters - they're not the people practising Islam in the majority of the case.

I'm surprised you're not sick of people being unable to say the word Catholic without twats saying paedophiles priests to you

It's completely wrong to tie the word catholic to paedophiles as it is to tie Islam to Islamic fundamentalism

The mistake the people who are ignorant or prejudiced on this thread are making is to assume Islam is Islamic fundamentalism when of course it's not

ilovesooty...... don't really understand what you mean. The "thousand" I'm referring to is nothing to do with books. You need to read the thread.

Maisy as much as I'd like to take that as a genuine sentiment, it's sort of difficult to do so considering a few minutes ago you said this:

They might say it's their choice but I wouldn't believe them.

So please, go ahead and enlighten me as to why you wouldn't believe me? Remember, there's no pressure from a man in my life and I am a convert to Islam so no family pressure either.

Ah, you can't remember any titles. That's convenient a shame.

Whisk I expect Maisy is boggled by me, seeing as I go against the findings of her extensive but impossible to recall biographical research.

I'm not implying they don't exist. Believe it or not, I've seen them in the library (and was given one to read by another friend).

My point is, you are being dismissive of people's actual first-hand experiences, but seem to expect us to just accept your second-hand reading. You do know that just because you have a book in your hand it doesn't make it true, right?

Your whole experience of Muslim women seems to be what you've read in books. Do you actually know any Muslim women?

And what Sooty said - have you read a thousand of these books? Because you've said that you need around a thousand accounts, so unless you have, I'd say the books you've read were all written by liars.

Tiptops

She probably thinks she's imagining you! You must have jumped right out of the pages of one those books. You're about as real as Tinkerbell or Winnie the Pooh right now.

whiskwarrior........I know the difference between your and you're. I don't need patronising by you. I made a simple typing mistake, don't show yourself up by jumping on it and trying to make me look stupid.

I have read the whole thread. You were the one who suggested interviewing a thousand women in order to give credibility to an opinion. I therefore asked you if you'd read a thousand biographies. So sorry if that was too difficult for you.

But Laurie, the thing is Saudi Arabia isn't a fundamentalist islamic nutter - it is a sovereign country imposing appallingly restrictive rules on women in the name of religion and it has a disproportionate voice in the world of islam- no two ways about it. Islam and muslims generally should acknowledge that - and come out and say what they think about it/condemn it.

And as a Catholic, NO I am not sick of people who tie catholicism to paedophilia because what happened was so awful that it warrants us looking into our religion and asking why this could have happened and thinking about how we can prevent similar things happening in the future by re-thinking how beliefs/power/control work in our religion. And we should be sorry - very sorry.

It is amazing to me that South Africa had the entire world boycotting it because of apartheid but a similar system is on going in Saudi and no western country and no activists are up in arms. I hope it is because women have always been on the lowest of the list when it comes to defending rights and not that people think religious belief trumps human rights.

whiskwarrior..... there was a thread the other day about people who seem to deliberately misunderstand what someone has written. What on earth are you talking about with these "thousand" books. I said that if you want to get a true actual finding about women wearing a burkha you would probably have to interview about a thousand women to get a true consensus. What is it about that that is so hard to understand. Why are you so dismissive about books, I'm talking about real people who have told their story, why on earth shouldn't I believe what I read. Or are you calling the people who have wrote them liars.

ilovesooty ......no I haven't read that many biographies! have you? ......I'm sorry I don't see the relevance. Why would you need to read that many books to get a consensus of opinion. I was talking about interviews. Is that too difficult for you.

Why are your biographies (number not stated) sufficient evidence whereas you state that in order to accept a differing point of view it would be necessary to interview a thousand women? You really don't seem to be capable of consistent debate.

tiptops but it seems to be alright for you to call me a liar because I can't remember the names of books I've read over the years. Good grief, who could. It's ridiculous and childish to imply I'm lying because I can't remember the names of books. Is seems like you are implying that no such books could possibly exist. How strange.

Look stop obsessing about these biographies. Over the years I've read many (and no I can't remember how many nor what they were called, who would).
That is what I have read, I've no reason to lie. What I am saying is if you want to find what the general consensus is of anything, regardless what it is, then you have to interview a large number of people. I gave the number a thousand, maybe you could do it with less. But that is the only way you would find out the true consensus. What is so wrong with that?

Arse, I don't know where my previous post went, but here we are, some links on why veils are not just personal choices but very definitely political. Lucky women in this country might get a choice, but not around the world. 1979 revolution in Iran made them mandatory, and eroded women's rights at the very same time. Likewise, Afghanistan, the Taliban and the burka.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/iran-women-hijab-facebook-pictures-alinejad

www.gozaar.org/english/articles-en/Iranian-Woman-Veil-and-Identity.html

Maisy well done for tiptoeing around my question. I'm sure such books do exist, because immoral and cruel people exist regardless of religious belief or lack thereof. I'm sure some women have been pressurised into altering their choice of clothing to please their partner, both Muslim and non-Muslim women. Abusive men aren't only found in one walk of life. The difference is, I wouldn't suggest women cannot be believed.

What you still don't seem to grasp is how offensive and childish your earlier comments were. You don't represent Muslim women, yet think you're best placed to judge our choices and disbelieve any Muslim woman who chooses to cover up for their own reasons i.e. me.

So again, please elaborate why when discussing a woman's choice to cover up you stated They might say it's their choice but I wouldn't believe them.

Curl the countries you have described, and their policies are not representative of Islam. Yes it is a complicated topic but let's be clear and not confuse cultural or political influences with religion. Islamically, the Quran is clear that there should be no compulsion in religion. Equally, Muslim women are under no obligation to wear the burqa from an Islamic POV.

I'm talking about women who might be frightened of stating their true feelings.

Maisy the relevance of how many 'biographies' you've read is that you've made huge, sweeping statements about Muslim people with very little basis. Yes, a general consensus is needed, but without this consensus of a large scale you come out with rubbish like this:

I really can't see women wearing the burka through personal choice. Almost always it's because their men folk want them to wear them.

I'm telling you that almost always it is not a choice that is made by a man, but because I'm a Muslim woman there hasn't been a large scale study to prove this you doubt the credibility of what I say. Now apply the same logic to your own statements. That's why it's relevant how much reading you have done.

The religious and the political are utterly interwoven in a religious state.

There is indeed what the Quran says versus what Islamic religious leaders in various countries say (likewise for any religion). But what affects women's autonomy in a religious state is what the leaders say women must do or wear, so when it comes to human rights I'm all about the practical not the theological.

I've said what I've said and I stand by it. It's your personal choice to wear it, fine, but you do not speak for all women.

Maisy I agree the burka isn't personal choice either. I think it's insulting to the women of Afghanistan in 1996 to suggest they suddenly all decided to wear one.

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/13/burqa-women-afghanistan-taliban-return

Taliban arrive, burkas become compulsory, education for girls is binned. Doesn't look to me like the women of Afghanistan chose it, and it doesn't look like they want it back either.

I don't think it's Maisy with her fingers in her ears singing la la la I can't hear you.

Im muslim. I used to cover my hair but dont anymore. I was never forced to do anything. It was all personal choice.
I have a few cousins how went from having no respect about their religion to wearing burkahs and giving Islamic lectures all by their own choice. They had read into the religion and obviously liked what they were doing and are

Sorry wouldnt let me add anything else.

They are passing om their knowledge to others now.

Every faith, religion, culture have idiots in them not just Islam.

Maisy another hijab wearing Muslim woman here who wears what she wants out of her own personal choice. My DH has little say in what I wear beyond the bedroom .

We're really not that rare. If you want biographies, then more than half my circle of friends are women who wear hijab out of choice. The rest choose not to. Not one of them have ever given the indication that they were forced by 'their menfolk'.