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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

punishing the whole class, AIBU to make a fuss?

305 replies

georgeousgeorge · 27/09/2014 16:51

So, some bright spark in DS1's class (he's 8 / y4) decided to pour water all over the teachers chair, she sat on it. 35 boys are "in the frame" and have been shouted at by the HOY.

Unless someone confesses they all get a half hour detention.....with the view being that the HOY assumed they all knew about it and that someone is going to dob in the culprit.... However none of them seems to know who did it, my DS certainly doesn't have a clue.

This is teaching my very good DS precisely nothing, he's polite, helpful, good reports, and has never been in trouble.

However, I do support the school, it is generally good.

However for the first time I'm turning into THAT mum - AIBU to make a fuss?

OP posts:

PastorOfMuppets · 27/09/2014 19:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

iwaly · 27/09/2014 19:53

About 2 years ago DS class was in a class given a whole class detention for something which only one (unknown) person could have done. DS has ASD. He hadn't been involved in this incident and believe me he had the most serious meltdown he has ever ever had at school. Inconsolable and school have never seen him like that before.

The head of year and other staff had to come and try and settle him, nothing worked and I was called from work eventually, to come into school. The teacher was simply unable to justify it to him in any way that could make sense to him and eventually cancelled it.

Sometimes I think kids with ASD can see things more clearly than anybody else - DS sometimes comes out with a point of view that is so "pure" is the only way I can describe it. No agenda - just says it how it is. Can be socially embarrassing as we know. But to punish him for something he had not done - to blemish his "clean" detention record - absolutely no way would he accept it.

The only way you can explain it to a child is in terms of "yes it is unfair but you have to put up with unfair things in life and this is one of them". Personally I don't agree that this is something that will help the teacher/class relationship: basically you are saying to them "I have the power to treat you unfairly so because someone has done something unpleasant to me I will use that power and punish all of you".

And no a wet skirt is not nice but to an 8 year old child (not to me or to an older child I must stress that) I can see that they might simply think it is a funny joke. Even if the culprit was not found, the incident could have been dealt with by getting the head to give a serious talk to the class about pranks and how they are not funny and perhaps use some examples of how seemingly harmless pranks have caused people real problems/upset. And perhaps the whole class could make amends by writing a letter to the teacher saying how sorry they are to hear that someone had done this to her. DS would have done that so long as it wasn't said to be a punishment.

ItsNotEasyBeingGreen · 27/09/2014 19:53

I may not legally have a say but I would kick up an almighty stink. I'd like to see them trying to 'detain' my child in such a circumstance. I can always legally remove them.

God I feel sorry for teachers having to deal with parents who will not accept that some things require punishment and to let the teachers do their job and discipline as they choose (within the law). Also it may be your child you know... You might not want to believe it but it may just be your child!

TortoiseUpATreeAgain · 27/09/2014 19:54

"No one else has yet come up with an alternative punishment" because no one is objecting to the punishment for the guilty child. We are objecting to punishing 29 (or maybe 27 or 28 if the culprits were a group) innocent children. They don't need an "alternative punishment" -- the whole point is that they shouldn't be punished at all.

As "we have no idea when this happened" it might not even be a member of the Y4 class -- could be a member of Y5 (last year's Y4) with a grudge against the teacher. So they may be punishing 30 innocent children rather than 29.

Group punishments don't work. Only in a tiny minority of cases is "peer pressure" going to make the malefactors start behaving or come forward; in most cases all that will happen is that the "good" children start to resent the teacher and the school authorities while the "bad" children enjoy the sense of power that comes along with getting everyone into trouble.

Hulababy · 27/09/2014 19:54

My school is maybe a smaller one than yours - but we have 3 staff on duty in the playground and 2 doors (one in upper yard and one in lower yard) with access to toilets - practically teachers can't stand next to these constantly.
The corridor where the upper toilets are is usually empty and playtime, other than children accessing the toilets. The duty teachers can't always see these whilst monitoring the rest of the playground. Children have free access. We already do 3 duties a week - who else can we ask to be toilet monitors? The children can't be them really, our eldest are year 2.

pudcat · 27/09/2014 19:57

So Tortoise - how do they find the guilty one? They have asked and no-one owned up.

Hulababy · 27/09/2014 19:57

Unless the OP comes and clarifies, it is difficult to know when and how this occurred, and how no one at all managed to witness it.

LaundryFairy · 27/09/2014 19:58

iwaly that sound so much like DS - one of the worst upsets ever at school was over a whole class detention when someone was hurt in the playground. And to add to the injustice of it, DS had been the one to run and get help when he saw that someone needed first aid.

Coolas · 27/09/2014 19:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Picturesinthefirelight · 27/09/2014 20:00

Yes I think that's correct iwaly. Children with ASD do see things more clearly.

Thinking back to when I was at school, we had prefects on all the does & in the corridors. We could get to the toilets but were not allowed to wander anywhere else & there was trouble if we were found.

pinkhousesarebest · 27/09/2014 20:00

I have, on occasion, been discomfited when my dcs missed sport, for example, because of the wayward behavior of their peers. My dcs just got on with it. However pouring water on a teachers's chair is a whole other level, bright spark or not. What 8 year old would do this? (mystified).

ItsNotEasyBeingGreen · 27/09/2014 20:00

Good idea Coolas.

GnomeDePlume · 27/09/2014 20:02

If the culprit cant be identified then no one should be punished. A group punishment in this circumstance is just allowing a humiliated teacher to vent their spleen on a group which all bar one is innocent.

Hulababy · 27/09/2014 20:03

I can't understand why any adult would find this kind of prank amusing tbh though. Why would anyone want to spend the day with a wet skirt and underwear? It would be unpleasant and embarrassing, even more so in front of a bunch of young children. We'd also have no way of drying it, and no way of changing.

Purpleroxy · 27/09/2014 20:13

I'd be happy for my 8yo ds in year 4 to do a half hour detention in a class where someone did this. My also has asd but the school know this and as long as it was explained to him in detail well in advance he could sit and do it. But really for a school to spring something unexpected and unjust onto an autistic 8yo is pretty idiotic. In fact once, when a class punishment/bollocking was needed, the teacher did it when my ds was ill but they were younger at that time.

That aside I do think that sort of incident can't go unpunished. Pretty shocking for a year 4 child to tip water over teacher's chair and if the child gets away with it, what is (s)he going to do next?

SuburbanRhonda · 27/09/2014 20:14

A group punishment in this circumstance is just allowing a humiliated teacher to vent their spleen

No, it's the school teaching children that poor behaviour is taken seriously.

longest · 27/09/2014 20:15

Genius Cooles

cloutiedumpling · 27/09/2014 20:16

Coolas - I like that idea.

We had lots of after school detentions at my Primary School. No one would tell the teacher who the culprit was because it would have resulted in bullying that would have lasted for months. Your method means that no one is seen by the others to be the individual who told the teacher.

GnomeDePlume · 27/09/2014 20:28

No, it's the school teaching children that poor behaviour is taken seriously..

I dont agree as all that you have is poor behaviour by one resulting in a totally unfair punishment of the vast majority. It is abuse of power by a teacher

TheRealAmandaClarke · 27/09/2014 20:30

I wouldnt make a fuss becasue i would save my energy for larger projects.
Its only half an hour.
But i dont think this kind of sanction is useful or reasonable for reasons that others have articulated here. I can't see how it helps children to respect authority.

Sapat · 27/09/2014 20:33

I think the school was right, that behaviour was simply not acceptable. And I am sorry but life indeed isn't fair and we have to accept responsibility for events that are not of our doing. We bail out the banks, we send troops to war, we subsidise people on benefits, chairmen step down if one of their officers do wrong... the list is long.

Maybe the punishment was not the best the school could have come up with, but I feel that they had to react and not let this pass. Obviously working with children might carry risks, but if one of my staff at work ever did this to me/anyone there would be disciplinary consequences.

I have a child with mild ASD. I feel that if I insist on a mainstream education then I need to accept the crap along with the good. If there is a group punishment then, within reason, so be it.

For what it is worth there once was a class punishment at primary. We had to write 50 lines or something similar. I refused as a matter of principle, as a result I was not allowed to go out at lunchtime until I had done my lines. This lasted a couple of weeks (where I had great fun larking about with all the naughty children who were always on detention) until the teacher got tired of if. He had made his point, I had made mine, we agreed on a draw. Oh the principles of youth....

One of my favourite Digbert sayings is that in life you have to accept that somedays you are the pigeon and other days you are the statue.

SuburbanRhonda · 27/09/2014 20:33

It is abuse of power by a teacher

I've heard everything now.

PastorOfMuppets · 27/09/2014 20:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dolceandgabbanter · 27/09/2014 20:37

Its lazy teaching at it's worst. I went to a crappy comp in the late 80s where the teachers were too scared of being seen to discipline any one person, so constantly gave whole class, and occasionally whole year, detentions. I never attended any. As I ended up with a degree and various professional quals, it clearly didn't do me any harm.

My DC had a couple of whole class detentions mooted in primary. They didn't attend, as they had to go a childminder after school who could not collect them later. I suggested if it was essential they serve a detention it was done in their lunch hour. Whereupon it wasn't essential after all.

PacificDogwood · 27/09/2014 20:42

Coolas, that's great.

I did mean 'how would you find out who did it and punish that person?' or 'how would you deal with not finding out and still instilling a sense of discipline in every member of the class?'

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