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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Re DS dunking child at swimming

340 replies

sezamcgregor · 26/09/2014 11:01

DS is Y2. They are going swimming with school. It's on Thursday afternoons. There are 24 in his class.

The class is known to be "lively" with "lots of big characters". School have also identified Thursday and Friday afternoons to be hard work as children are becoming tired and harder to keep concentration.

So, children split into two groups of 12:

Group A - Non swimmers, armbands on in shallow end, swimming teacher plus two school staff members

Group B - Swimmers (can swim without armbands) at the deep end, swimming teacher

Two incidents occur towards the end of the lesson, one of which is DS pulling a child under the water as he over took her.

Pulled over by Head Teacher today and put forward my mitigation that a) there was one person to 12 children who school know can be challenging b) it was Thursday afternoon which school know is a difficult time slot.

HT totally dismissed my comments.

She said that she will also be speaking to the swimming instructor as she should have alerted school staff earlier that she could not cope with the group. (Surely school staff would have noticed if she were not coping and offered to help??)

DS is missing next week's swim as a consequence - which is fine. I have no problem with that and agree that there should be a consequence.

But AIBU to think that she needs to look at the whole picture? I have a kind of "well, what did they expect to happen" view of it

OP posts:
AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore · 26/09/2014 23:31

There's a difference between supporting the school's actions at home and disciplining a child a second time when he has already had consequences at school. The OP stated that she did discuss it with her ds, thus supporting the school's actions. Punishing him again would be ridiculous.

Coolas · 26/09/2014 23:33

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore · 26/09/2014 23:34

Coolas Some dcs with ADHD or ODD can sometimes be incapable of risk assessing a situation. Perhaps not always, but there are some situations or circumstances where their lack of capability to risk assess places them (and sometimes others) in danger.

Just because there are "a lot of extremely self sufficient and successful people with these conditions" about does not mean that ALL people with those conditions are the same.

Coolas · 26/09/2014 23:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Calaveras · 26/09/2014 23:37

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Maryz · 26/09/2014 23:39

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sezamcgregor · 26/09/2014 23:55

I phoned the pool to check re ratios.

It is different for private lessons than for school groups. I was told that with armbands ratio is either 1 to 10 or 12 - without armbands ratio is 1 to 20. They are maximum guidelines.

I hope that I do not come across as trying to make excuses for DS's behaviour. He's doing things all of the time, I deal with it, we move on. It's remembering to praise him for deciding not to do it and reinforcing that positive behaviour that is difficult because most of the things that he does are so based on impulse, a "normal" child would not even consider them or would know instinctively not to do them.

OP posts:
NickiFury · 26/09/2014 23:56

coolas my child does not risk assess he is not capable of it.

Coolas · 27/09/2014 00:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IneedAwittierNickname · 27/09/2014 00:15

Sorry I haven't rtft, only got half way through.

But is swimming really on the NC?

At what age? I only ask because at DCs school they get 1/2 terms worth of lessons in year 5 and I think the same again in year 6.

sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 01:24

Thank you all for taking the time to post and continue to argue amongst yourselves

LittleBairn - In an ordinary lesson, you can have 10 children with armbands to one teacher and so 2:12 (or 1:6) to ensure the safety of ALL of the 24 children rather than having 1:4 and 1:12 and evidently not being able to ensure their safety - it's a no-brainer for me.

I had a good chat with DS. He told me all about the swimming lesson as we walked home from school. To encourage them to swim better, it seems that they were racing in pairs down the pool. DS wanted to win and went to pull the girl out of his way, in doing so, he pushed her under the water. I told him that he has to miss next week. He's disappointed. When we got home, he sat with me and we talked about the possible outcomes of her being under the water. We talked about pool safety. We agreed that when he goes swimming after school on a Tuesday if he does not exhibit water safety then he cannot go on a Thursday with school. I will speak to both his swimming teacher and the HT about this when I can bear to talk to her again

DS says that his homework is to write a letter to the swimming teacher apologising for his behaviour. I'm afraid the only letter I'll be asking to her is to say "sorry for getting you done by the HT".

I've chatted tonight with a mum from school with autistic DS - HT was very accommodating with her and her DS as he had a statement before he came to school. She says that HT is the SENCO fucking excellent She's advised contacting Parent Partnership for someone to assist me with the HT.

So basically, the history is that at nursery, DS was allowed to run around all day everyday. They never mentioned any problems except for a few incidents over the 4 years that he was there. I assumed that as they weren't bothered, why should I be? They're the professionals - surely if something was "wrong" they'd say, that is why I'm paying them £45 a day....

Started school and I put his behaviour down to going from zero boundaries at nursery to suddenly having lots of boundaries and rules at school. Teacher was very negative and did not have a clue about what to do with DS. HT shouted a lot. HT made him wet himself from shouting at him so much. Class teacher recommended that I approach SureStart as they can help with challenging behaviour and she clearly had no idea what to do with him. SureStart began positive play. HT left and Class teacher became Acting Head. She still remained very negative and seemed exasperated even first thing on a Monday and so I chose to move him. This was May half term.

DS started new school and though I did not necessarily like his teachers, he knew a lot of the children from nursery and generally being a kid in our town and he was much happier.

At the end of reception, school referred him to Ed Psyc and School Health. Saw School Health in September and Ed Psyc discussed DS with HT but would not do formal assessment. SureStart continued positive play.

DS has teacher with only 1 or 2 years teaching experience who tries softly softly approach. The class went wild. DS is put on his own table when disruptive and allowed to sit out on his own during certain parts of the timetable when he would be too disruptive to manage.

Behaviour Support observed DS and gave recommendations. DS to have more 1-2-1 time with an adult.

SureStart to stop positive play as it is detrimental to DS as he is too excited to see her and so needs calming down afterwards to get back into the classroom.

Recommendations given by BS are working well. Another visit to school health - everything is looking quite positive.

Recommendations given by BS no longer effective. HT says that DS is having too much 1-2-1 time. This needs to stop.

BS observed DS again and gave more recommendations.

BS and SureStart have completed reports/tests that suggest that DS has low self-esteem and that his behaviour is a mask for that. BS suggests applying for some funding to give DS some 1-2-1 during assembly time every day to promote self-worth etc.

SureStart (who is co-coordinating CAF meetings) chases HT re this funding application for 6-8 weeks.

CB and HT announce that there is no point applying for funding as we would never have been awarded it with it being quite "low level" stuff.

Had to ask HT to get Breakfast Club to offer wholegrain cereal rather than Chocolate Crisps FFS.

July - Visit with school health. Referral to Pediatrician. Recommendation to have Positive Play with SureStart, explained school's reservations and spoke about having a male worker rather than yet more women.

September - SureStart hands case over to MAT Team (with male workers, hurrah!) who are going to arrange to meet DS and begin irregular (crazy workload) sessions with DS. Appointment with Pediatrician comes through.


HT seems to struggle to have a normal conversation. She is abrupt and generally has no people skills. She is also the SENCO worker for the school. I have always supported her 100% because, though she does not seem able to come across well, she has always acted in DS's best interests and although he is like he is, he also has a lot of good traits and is a well liked child.

One of the main reasons why I moved his school was that his teacher did not seem to 1. Know what to do with him 2. Like him at all.

At this school, although we've had our conversations over the last 18 months, HT has always ended meetings on a positive even if it's just been a "well, we'll keep on trying with him" - just something I didn't get that today. I didn't even get a Goodbye or a "thank you for your time". Yes, DS should not have touched the girl's body while he was swimming past her - the issue is not just about her going under the water, but respecting her body is her own and that you don't push people out of your way. I did not want to sound although I was telling HT how to do her job but simply stating that I was shocked at the actual facts ie that there was 1 teacher to 12 easily excitable children at one end and 3 to 12 in the other group - it would have made more sense to me for the ratios in each group to be 2 to 12 at least for this first lesson to ensure they settled in correctly, that silliness was quickly kept in check and that the children were shown what was expected of them and when they had proved themselves, then remove that extra supervision rather than the other way around.

I was also unaware that it was in the afternoon as I either was not told or did not read the letter properly. HT told me that they "may as well go home" on Thursday & Friday afternoons as DS's behaviour deteriorates so much at these times. She admitted that actually, most of Friday is a challenge. When I spoke to her about it this morning, she retorted "huf, when is a good time for DS?"

I also do not understand some of the things that she asks DS to do. She once told him to score how well the morning had gone out of 10 - totally inappropriate IMO.

She spoke today about asking DS to promise to behave. As Mary Poppins would say "that's a shortcrust promise - easy to make and easy to break". I don't like promises. In my experience, they usually relate to things that definitely will not ever happen. I really do avoid making them to DS and I think that it's a bad habit to get into. But, with little thought, DS would quite happily sit and promise her what ever she wants to hear but after the exciting walk to the pool, the exciting taking shoes off, the exciting getting changed, the exciting wait by the pool - the promise is soon forgotten. When I told her "what he needs is supervision" what I really wanted was for her to look at the situation realistically. Realistically, asking DS to "promise to behave" is not going to make him behave. In fact, even using just the phrase "behave" would do Fuck. All. My mission for the next 2 weeks is to regularly chat with him about pool safety, the importance of proving himself at the Tuesday lessons. No splashing, no touching other bodies, no putting floats in the water, no running, getting into the pool safely and getting out quickly - and then the praise and encouragement when he does manage, the thumbs up through the glass and the smiles and the winks. But he knows the Rules now and this actually may have been a good wake up call for both us (me and the DS) and the pool who also commented that some teachers let them get away with more

OP posts:
sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 01:25

Swimming is not NC but if he did not go, what would they do with him?

School have had some extra funding for sports and have put it towards swimming lessons.

Last year it was great, with DS having two lessons a week he came on loads.

OP posts:
IneedAwittierNickname · 27/09/2014 02:00

Thanks seza I don't have a solution. I only asked as other people said right at the start the swimming was on the NC and I wondered why my dc didn't do it then.

What my primary school did swimming lessons my mum refused to send me so I used to spend the afternoon with a different class. I hated it but then I hated the swimming lessons too

immaturestudent · 27/09/2014 02:04

YABVU. stuff happens in seconds in pools. pulling, holding other children down, not waiting turn is out of line regardless of any other factor and DS knows this. IMO, HT did you a favor, investigate further, talk to DS, swimming teacher, observe a class, is this a one off.

Also, your mitigation is not relevant. Are children tired before/during or after class? tiredness or a buzz is expected after certain classes and other teachers often complain coz children are useless for a while. The only argument i can see is that DS was tired before or by class, needed help or was overestimated, and pulled down the other child to rescue himself/in his difficulties, which are all separate issues but is not the case you are making.

At a public pool I worked at 10yrs ago this was a straight up ban pending investigation, as lifeguards would need to constantly monitor one child. For private swimming classes/slots/groups, most teachers will avoid or underteach child who has problems with safety rules/instructions.

sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 02:07

I think they're NC for year 5 or 6, we're lucky really that we have crap PE facilities and so school have put the funding towards swimming. Each year group gets a term each, so DS's class will go until Christmas.

Re my DS and swimming - I don't know what will happen. Well, it's got two choices! If he can't be sensible then I'll probably ask for his out of school lessons to be terminated too. It's always a struggle and to be honest, I could do without it.

OP posts:
sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 02:11

immaturestudent hello :) You will notice that this thread now has 317 posts and so you can probably guess that it's moved on a bit since my OP.

If you would like to take the time to read the thread and post once you know all of the facts, not just my hastily-written-when-I-was-still-cross OP that would be much better.

If not, that thread about single parents receiving £900 per month (not including HB) is a great thread to post unhelpful comments on.

OP posts:
MiscellaneousAssortment · 27/09/2014 03:02

Well quite, this is not the thread of someone refusing to take responsibility and action for her child's behaviour is it?! This is not the thread of someone who won't work with the school is it?! This is not the thread of someone who just needs to discipline more is it?!

OP, it sounds utterly draining and the constant battle to try and get professionals to engage with the problems and work together to solve them, well it sounds soul destroying. Flowers

sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 03:12

But then, having been crying at work this morning and again later from some of the replies on here - being DS's mum is awesome.

I do not know any of his friends at school that would let their mums piggy back them and then sing songs from Frozen Grin

OP posts:
immaturestudent · 27/09/2014 05:27

sezo, I apologize for earlier post which went up after a long delay and web refreshing and was written before your last post. It was inconsiderate given the background. Clearly this is a lot to handle.

Regards the swimming, it sounds like DS enjoys this and to not attend may be worse in long run. I hope discussion with swimming teacher goes well as they may not have full picture from HT, although HT may have taken action after incident. Swimming teachers may spend less time with kids and so unaware of DS needs and specific cues and without a lesson plan to address water safety from beginning, impulse & risk assessment. It may still be worthwhile to find out this is common and part of overall problem with school or one-off. Also, swimming classes may be more challenging after reception, and teacher, TAs, ratios and structure may change and from post, it seems there is a weekly buildup in other classes that may mix up swimming class.

maybe reinforce with private swimming classes/club if you can find a decent place with good male teacher a few older boys, as they take less kids, are very consistent with rules/water safety, focus on healthy competition which will help with impulse control and self esteem and also usually constantly correct, support and encourage good behavior in pool.

I don't think you will win on ratios though, basically you are asking HT to remove TA from less able swimmer group and reassign to the group your DS is in. Even if HT knows DS issues, she may not be able to this ad hoc, there may be regulations or formal request or process, additional TA to be employed, additional assessment or review though I don't know how this works.

overall situation can grind one down. the other thing is noticed is that HT has several roles DS class teacher, SENCO and HT and which may get mixed up. parent-teacher can be informal and parent -HT is different and decision in either capacity are drastically different. HT actions and decisions about about pool incidents is acceptable in my view because she was acting as HT with overall responsibility for all children's safety and should prioritize other child's safety. On the other hand, you can approach swimming teacher and HT in her role as class teacher to make some adjustments and share information about what works and what does not work as often they have some leeway to change things in class or informally, dunno, other poster may have experience on what can be changed easily.

MissDuke · 27/09/2014 08:56

Haven't read the entire thread as its so long!

My initial thoughts were that they are too young to be going to swimming lessons with school, my daughter only started last year when she was 8. But then I was thinking about my 5 year old son who goes to swimming lessons at the same place as my daughter only I take him, its a Thursday at 5pm and there are 10 5-6 year olds in the water with one teacher standing at the side. He has full control of the class and there have been no incidents that I am aware of. Parents are not meant to stay, but usually a few of us spy through the window lol!

My daughter is now 9 and has ADHD, I worried a lot about her going to the lessons, but she has been fine so far. I did spend a long time discussing water safety with her first. There are 26 in her class and they have one swimming teacher teacher, and the class teacher and assistant sit at the side. If my daughter were to 'dunk' someone, I would punish her tbh, discuss it all with her, ask her to think how frightened she would be if it happened to her and give her a final warning - any more misbehaving in the pool and she will be staying behind with another class during swim time.

agiantwoman · 27/09/2014 09:36

OP have you spoken to IPSEA and SOSSEN? I've found them to be excellent - you can talk through what's happening with your ds and they will advise you on how to move forward with school.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore · 27/09/2014 09:41

seza regarding the statutory assessment, check the IPSEA website. You can apply for it yourself. Don't be fobbed off by the school saying it's not worth it to apply. It's ALWAYS worth it. The worst that could happen is a refusal to assess, and you're then no worse off than you are now.

Beautifullymixed · 27/09/2014 10:41

OP I just wanted to say that I think your son is lucky to have you as a parent, and you are trying your best in a situation which is incredibly stressful.
Don't give up, keep fighting and being proactive for your ds.
I find you very articulate, and able to stay calm- a positive thing indeed. Especially while defending your parenting skills.
Good luck. Flowers

sezamcgregor · 27/09/2014 12:39

Am I allowed to be cross that school as well as dealing with at the time and arranging that DS would miss next week's lesson have also made him miss playtime yesterday afternoon?

I think it's over kill

OP posts:
PourquoiTuGachesTaVie · 27/09/2014 12:47

I don't think it's overkill. He could have killed someone behaving like that.

My ds is (only just) 4 but I would ensure he was appropriately punished for behaviour that could hurt himself or others.