To tell ds1 not to tell the teacher about 'bad behaviour'?

[EmeraldLion]

Ds1 is 6 and an old soul. He's very serious, sensible, likes lists and timetables and rules.

Last year in Year 1 he was chosen as the class representative for the school council - which decide the schools 'laws' and help enforce them in the class (making posters, suggesting activities to the teachers etc). Things like being kind, not littering etc.

He excelled at it and was in his element. This year though a different child has the chance to take part and he was very upset that he's not in the council anymore.

Anyway...this morning he told me he'd decided that if he can't help make the laws any more, he's still going to try to make sure his class behaves and no one is naughty to help his teacher out. When I asked how he's going to do this he said by always telling her when one of his classmates does something naughty, and that he already started doing this yesterday.

When I asked for examples of things he'd told her, it was 'Alex left his book on the carpet when we're not allowed' and 'Thomas was flicking water' and 'Evie was throwing a ball indoors'...that sort of thing. All of which he 'reported'. Apparantly his teacher has told him it's a good idea for him to do this.

So...I told him that if he ever, ever saw someone being mean to someone (or to him) he should always tell the teacher. Or if he saw anyone doing something really dangerous. But not to keep reporting his classmates for anything else, and that it's the teachers jobs to notice.

When he looked confused and asked why, I told him because other children don't like tell tales, and although I knew he meant well, the other children may not want to play with him if he was always reporting them.

AIBU?

YABU

Let school deal with it. You are giving mixed messages to him. I don't think at 6 you an expect them to weigh up " minor infringements" and he's going to feel confused that the class made the rules but some kids don't have to adhere to them....

So he can tell the teacher if there is a problem. She will deal with the ones she wants to and ignore the rest- and that may even be child dependent "Toms was flicking water... that goodness that's all he's been up to" or " Evies been playing ball indoors and last year we had a kid fall and break and arm in the same circumstances, better stamp on that" What he shouldn't do is tell the child off himself. That's not his role.

YANBU, this kind of thing is annoying for everyone. Kids can absolutely tell the difference between important and unimportant infractions.

I think a good rule is to tell the teacher in order to get other kids OUT of trouble, not in order to get other kids IN trouble. (Tell if someone is being bullied or is putting themselves or others in serious danger.)

YANBU, my DS had a similar role in year 1 and although he excelled in it- precisely because of the reasons your son did, it was really prohibitive to friendships and this noticeably improved when this role ended. In fact he became a very popular boy in Year 2!

He is in Junior school now and was quite shocked yesterday as he witnessed along with many others one boy hit another hard around the face. He told me that no teachers had witnessed this and every one was too scared to inform the teacher. My DS suggested he say something today- I've advised against this as it is not appropriate to tell on someone a day later and i would imagine the 'victim' probably told his parents last night.

I had this with my son, when he was in YR they learned the 'golden rules' and he genuinely could not understand why some kids didn't follow them. He assumed they had forgotten and would helpfully remind them.
It is an important social skill to learn and I think you are NBU to try and address it. I like claraschu's suggestion of getting people out of trouble. Could you help him think of a different way to help the teacher out, maybe have a quick chat with her for some suggestions?

YANBU. He's going to make himself extremely unpopular with everyone if he keeps this up. There's a massive difference between telling a teacher when someone is doing something dangerous or bullying, and just trying to get his classmates in trouble for the sake of it.

Does he start his sentences with that awful drawn out uuuUUUMMMmmmMmmm?

I encourage my DCs to report any bullying or serious misdemeanours whereby someone else may get hurt but I actively discourage tale telling for minor infringements which will only make them unpopular.

I'm surprised that the teacher encouraged this TBH.

Cross posted!

I think this is the beginning of a complex ethical path we all have to tread, whatever age. I like your take on it, OP. (And how exciting to have such a leaderly little boy!)

I think it's incredibly important that we learn to stand up for what is right, even if it makes us unpopular. There is quite a lot of emphasis on conformity and popularity nowadays, and maybe not enough on being strong and independent (just a personal view). By telling him that he needs to speak up if it's important, you're preserving this sense in him that there are times when he may need to take that risk. It's only by really going through those times of having to stick to our guns even if people react negatively that we learn what being true to your ideals and to yourself really mean. I honestly think some kids never get that experience, and become drone-like corporate automata rather than people who have the ability to change the world.

Of course, reporting every minor infraction is likely to annoy other children, so drawing his attention to that is pretty important. Maybe drawing his attention to the fact that he has a loyalty to his classmates as well as the rules might help? But you don't want to go to the other extreme and make him feel like he has to conform to whatever is going on around him in case he gets a negative reaction.

Totally agree with everything external has written. I teach this age group and that behaviour is not at all uncommon. He actually sounds lovely, he will soon get the message that he needs to tone down his vigilante tactics from his friends but agree that he is basically in the right track ! My dd told me that in her first week at high school she told off some older boys who were making fun of a teacher who was hard of hearing, I was so impressed and proud!

I think it's important that children learn not to tell tales (because it's bloody annoying for the adults involved!), but they all seem to go through a stage of this.

I think you did well to talk to you DS about the difference between the two, but the school will also handle it as well. Do you think it's an attention thing at all? I volunteer at Brownies, and for our tale tellers it's all about having "special" adult attention.

Yes, i think externalwallinsulation has it right. I believe my DS has a strong sense of justice for what is 'right' as I did/do and I think it is important not to always be a conformist in that respect. He is very emotionally mature which I think some of his friends (?) label as 'weird' but I think it will stand him in good stead when he is older and has to think for himself and apply self discipline when faced with peer pressure perhaps.

Goldenbear for what its worth I am sorry that you advised your DS against telling what he had seen.

The victim may not have supportive parents, or may not have a relationship with anyone in authority that allows him to say what has happened. It might be useful and important for the teachers to know this happened. Or they might have doubted the victim's account and be interested to have some independent corroboration. It clearly worried your son enough to muse over it for a day or two. This doesn't mean the that the information is no longer valid.

I do believe we must encourage our children to speak out against bullying when they see it. I'm not saying you don't - these issues are complex and I appreciate that you felt it was all a bit after the fact. But in a difficult situation I think I would have made a different call.

It is hard to parent these 'serious soul - straight down the line - rule following' children and definitely harder when they have done something like been on the school council. They are right but it doesn't make them popular.

I don't think the teacher handled it very well tbh.

I think you did just fine :)

Goldenbear - I don't think you should have told your DS not to tell a teacher. That's a physical assault. What if the child is too scared to tell a teacher and doesn't have the sort of parents he can tell? I think you should say to your DS that you have been thinking about it all day and have changed your mind. That child needs support, your DS might be the start of him getting that.

While I think children need to learn that ratting on their friends for minor infractions isn't going to endear them to anyone, we certainly don't want them turning away from reporting bullying or any other dangerous behaviour.

They are all tittle-tattles at this age (unless of course, they are the miscreant). And it's nigh impossible for a 6 year old to distinguish between major and minor offences.

Leave him to it. I understand your concern but I doubt you can explain it to him in terms that he will understand. To him, rules are rules and that's it. Sooner or later he'll figure it out for himself - both teachers and fellow pupils will make it clear.

Just wait till he's a teenager. Then they seem to agree some vow of omertà and you'll look back fondly on his innocent take on right and wrong.

I think it's incredibly important that we learn to stand up for what is right, even if it makes us unpopular.

In some situations yes.... But telling the teacher because a six year old left a book on the carpet does not make one the second coming of Gandhi to say the least.

I have also seen the difference between telling tales and telling the teacher defined as
telling the teacher when it will get someone out of trouble (eg when someone is hurt or upset)
telling tales is when it will get someone into trouble - they broke a rule.

I think that it is hard to 6 year olds to tread that path though.

Golden bear, I think in your ds case it was definitely the first and he should be encouraged to tell. The victim may not have told for lots of reasons and staff should be aware.

I think you dealt with it well op. You are teaching him the difference between reporting important things eg someone being mean or behaving in a dangerous way, and a minor issue re c book being left in the wrong place. I think saying its the teachers job to notice those things is a good approach to avoidyour son being the class policeman. I would also speak to the teacher about it so you can work unhealthy on encouraging him without him being a tell tale

YANBU

I had a friend that was appointed class leader for the week as per the job chart, which really meant make sure everyone stays quiet when the teacher leaves the room and help keep the line straight after recess.

Anyway, she told over every minor infraction and was not very popular. The teacher had to talk to her.

My rule when watching kids is: Is can someone get hurt? Are they being mean to you? Then don't tell. I don't care little Johnny is chewing on the couch blanket while we're watching a movie.

On the other hand, it would have been nice if one tipped me off that one of them snuck a cookie into bed so I didn't have to vacuum up the bed and change the sheets.

Unhealthy? Together that should be

I don't think it is an attention thing with him...I think he genuinely just likes rules, takes them seriously, and wants people to follow them.

A few months ago when the council had spent a week focusing on litter, he actually picked up a crisp packet just outside the school and chased after the mid-30's man he'd seen throw it, and gave it back with a pointed 'I think you dropped this' and raised eyebrow. The man looked amused and mortified in equal measure (and standing next to him as I'd just caught up I think I probably looked equally half-mortified and half proud!)

I think the crisp packet thing is excellent as dropping litter is wrong.

I agree about the balance between not telling tales and conveying helpful information to the teacher.

Could you talk to the teacher about it? Explain your concerns to them, they might agree with you and you can deal with it together.

YANBU but talk to his teacher about it so you're both giving him the same message.

YANBU. Personally I would have acted as you did, and told him not to tell on his classmates unless they were doing something dangerous or unkind. For two reasons:

• he'll become really unpopular. I know for example who the tattler is in my DS's (YR2) class, because I've heard my son and his mates talking about it. The tattler is not popular, for that reason only as far as I can make out.
• it could encourage him to take pleasure in other people being punished, which is an unpleasant character trait. I think that if someone really wants the best for other people they don't tell tales about their minor infractions.

Of course, many/most kids at this tender age tell tales, but if he's making it his mission to do so on a daily basis I think you should intervene.
He seems to be seeking to replace the sense of self-worth and satisfaction he got from being on school council . . . could you find him a helper role in another capacity? A role being helpful in some way would hopefully give him those feelings of responsibility and satisfaction, but be an awful lot more positive than policing his classmates' every move.