To not understand why children start school so young in the UK

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Just that really. In lots of countries children don't start school properly until 6 or 7 whereas in the UK it is 4 or 5, depending on where in the school year their birthday falls. I know some in the SW Valleys area who have started school (not nursery) at 3.

Britain doesn't appear to be topping education charts from what I can tell so what is the benefit?

Nope most British people don't get it either!

Work in a reception class now and parent for 25 years, a CM for years too and have yet to meet these mythical children who are ready to start

They really arnt.

My eldest has a birthday right at the end of August. He literally started reception at the age of 4 and a couple of days old.
He was always more than ready to go though, and thrived. He could read by the age of 3 (NOT a stealth boast, just the truth) and loved counting. He loved school as it meant it could provide him with more simulation.
2nd child, also reading from an early age (4) and born in July so still young.
Starting at 7 is far, far too late and they need some kind of education before that age.
My youngest is now 7 and I can't imagine him just starting school now. That's absolutely ridiculous.They need some education before then.
You hear about kids being stuck in nursery at the age of 2 in the UK if parents are poor. They're encouraged. Can you imagine if they couldn't start until 7? So why are they in nursery at the age of 2 if it's not important and we should all be at home? Genuine question.

I think it's one of those things that there will never be a 'one size fits all' solution to. DD has a Jan birthday, she was more than ready to start school (she had been doing reading and writing at nursery for a year at that point). There were children in her reception class who were clearly not ready - and they really varied in age, some of the just 4 yr olds settled brilliantly, some of the older children struggled. I know one of the children is still really struggling to settle and she is 7 next month and in yr 2.

Interestingly I saw http://www.buzzfeed.com/laraparker/this-is-what-paid-maternity-leave-looks-like-around-the-worl?s=mobile this earlier today. Which suggests that generally speaking maternity provision through most of the world is pretty shit. And vast numbers of small children are probably in some kind of child care setting whether that is formal or not. A good setting will work with each particular child in a way that suits them.

Perhaps the best way would be for children to be able to start school between 4 and 7. But the logistics of that would be a nightmare. Would you have mixed age classes throughout school with kids moving up (and potentially down) according to their abilities? What about kids who are brilliant at English but shit at Maths (or vice versa, or other random selection of subjects). How would we ensure that children start school when they are ready? Some parents would be bound to send them too soon, some too late...

Minefield.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine I agree. I was living in the UK when my oldest hit 4, and I was fully invested in the 'my child is oh so ready for school at 4' idea, and off she went. She used to try to lie down on the carpet in the classroom and have a nap in the afternoon, she was so tired. Sure she did well academically, but I look back and I so wish I'd had another year of her at home. We'd still have read, written, etc.

We then moved abroad and I did not have the option of sending my next 4yo off to school, nor the one after. If I was in the UK I'd have made the argument that they were ready too, but they were actually so much better off at home or with their childminder, doing the occasional morning at pre-school but mostly just playing, pottering, helping the childminder bake and helping her husband paint etc.

'the logistics of that would be a nightmare. Would you have mixed age classes throughout school with kids moving up (and potentially down) according to their abilities? What about kids who are brilliant at English but shit at Maths (or vice versa, or other random selection of subjects). How would we ensure that children start school when they are ready? Some parents would be bound to send them too soon, some too late...'

This is how the DCs' American high school operates. (I realise you are talking about primary schools here however).. The logistics are probably not that much of a nightmare as they have been doing it forever. All students in all subjects at all levels could potentially be sitting in class beside a student who could be as much as four years younger or older. DD1 had a bearded 18 yo in her advanced algebra class when she was 14, as well as several other students older than herself. This was a student who was fantastic at art but had let math slide. Throughout their high school careers, all the DCs had students in their courses who might be doing an advanced level at one subject but remedial in others. Students could drop a class or change to a different teacher within the first two weeks of the start of a semester. Students could drop a level too, or could drop to a lower level after one semester of a course if they were finding the going rough. In order to advance to a higher level students could take intensive summer school classes. Students who failed a course were obliged to retake it in summer.

There are multi age classrooms in local public elementary schools. My mother, growing up in Ireland in the 1930s and 40s, went to an early prototype - a two roomed school

Thebody Why are children ready to start mythical?

Ds has started and is fine.

Italy has a great system IMO ( just falls by the wayside when they get older ) they go to a preschool from 3-6. In the 3 years it starts off at play, structured play, then the last year is more school orientated with ' worksheets, introduction to letters and numbers . They eat at school and move up from spoon and fork to knife and fork and ' setting a place at the table'. Each year has a theme and they really have learnt via play . My dd2 is heading for elementary school now and will be 6 in a couple of months.

My ds wasn't ready for school at the usual time, he started aged 6 1/2 in Y2 having been home ed for a while.

He attended pre-school between 2 1/2 and 5 but any attempts to get him to make any marks on paper were a disaster, he would get so upset with himself that he couldn't control the pencil/crayon that he started calling himself stupid and hitting himself.

In our time at home he used his hands for play activities but I focused on talking based learning. When he decided he wanted to start school he was still not able to write but had confidence enough to know that didn't mean he was stupid, he arrived in the classroom having a lot of knowledge so he wasn't treated like he was stupid.

He was eventually diagnosed as having hypermobility in his hands to the extent that writing for more than a few minutes dislocates his fingers but now he uses a computer he's just entered Y11 having already got an A in GCSE Physics and expecting to get the same in his other 11 subjects this year.

I will never know but I strongly suspect that a combination of starting school earlier and his personality would have ended up with him being put in bottom sets and very little expected of him because his confidence would be rock bottom.

The education system here is just too controlling. I went to formal education at 7, having previously attended a reception type class from 6, which was NOT compulsory. Even then, we didn't stay at school for 6 hrs a day! It's madness to expect that of 4 year olds. There just needs to be more flexibility, I don't think we as parents are trusted to know what is best for our own children.

My DS is a May baby so will only have 1 term of reception before going into year 1.

Depending on him, I'd like the option for him to start reception when he is 5.4 so he gets a whole yr of reception then goes into yr1. I don't think this is an option at the moment but believe their is a FB campaign for summer born babies.

I worry that if this was an option he might resent me when he is older for having to stay in school a year longer.

There is no way I think 4.4 is ok to start school, even if they are advanced I feel it should wait until
They are 6.

Littlejohnnydory - I completely agree.

I clearly wasn't saying though that when they are 4 they need monitoring and anything that happens before then doesn't matter.

Sadly though (and I know from experience with a lot of children in foster care) that a lot of the time abuse is hidden very well. Unless the government instigate monthly check ups on every child there is no way to check on them and their well being.

I was just saying that at least by the age of 4 there is school and I know from experience this is a place where things like neglect or abuse do tend to get noticed and reported. Also children that are over / under weight get help, sight and hearing are checked in year 1.

I think school at this age is a great thing but that's my personal experience with my DS.

Also like someone said. How is school any different to nursery? When I worked at a nursery there was so many that had their 3 month old babies start and were in 7am - 7pm mon-Friday.

This continued until they went to school. Surely 6 hours a day at school doesn't hurt and it's good for them to socialise.

Most of the work in DS reception class was play learning or fun games, nothing strenuous.

The people who wanted to have their kids at home with them till six or seven--could you not just officially arrange to home-educate for a couple of years? Genuine question. Since HE is perfectly legal in this country.

The people who wanted to have their kids at home with them till six or seven--could you not just officially arrange to home-educate for a couple of years? Genuine question. Since HE is perfectly legal in this country.

I looked into this. Firstly, I object to them being in formal education at age 4 in any case and would have resented the administrative burden. Secondly, the school my kids attend made no promises as to whether they would accept them at year 1/2 if I had HE for 1/2 years. They might have taken them, they might have not - it would have been a case of if they have space.

Ready to start

Yes ready to start having time away from home/cm/nursery setting yes that's ok for most 4 year olds but by no means all.

However unless you have worked in a reception/ year one class I think you would be amazed at the amount of formal numeracy and literacy done there. The class get extremely tired. The teachers are under extreme pressure to get children performing at expected targets and it was a real shocker for me.

Yes kids can learn to read at 4 and yes they can seem happy and coping but believe me that's the real minority and the school I work in is very middle class and high achieving area.

No other European country starts formal education as young as we do and they have better results so the facts show we are getting it wrong.

Our teens are unhappy too, another WHO fact.

We are getting it wrong.

School is nothing like nursery.

most if the work in ds reception was play learning and nothing strenuous

Yep agree I thought that 2 with all my kids until I worked in reception/year 1. It's really not.

The targets teachers have to reach for each child by the end of reception class are very specific and put immense pressure on teachers who in turn need to get the kids to achieve them.

I am more shocked that there are countries where formal reading and maths doesn't start until 7-8. That's so late!

Why is that too late? It clearly isn't as the European countries this occurs in have better results than us at 16 and far far happier teenagers.

Our way is not evidence based but quite the contrary.

It's British ingrained maddness similar to binge drinking.

Ds is 7 but is developmentally a toddler. He copes fine with a long school day(in his case a specialist school) that includes 2 hrs in a taxi. I think it is more about providing appropriate schooling.

I think one of the difficulties would be that the private sector would continue to start at 4 and you would see an even bigger gap developing.

You would also see am even greater exodus to the private sector by parents who perceive their DC to need the challenge of formal teaching,

You are always going to get children who are immature no matter what system and I also suspect sometimes it is the parent that is not ready for their child to start school rather than the child themselves.

In this country we have a lovely slow transition from playing all day to formal schooling in year 1. I have very mature children who were september born as well and we had a problem of having out grown primary in year 6. They werent bored academically but were ready for the independence of a much larger secondary school where they could start to spread their wings
I have friends who ds was still not ready for school in Germany at the age of 7. Going from playing all day to a very strict formal setting, and expected to hit the ground running was a horrible shock to his little world. As others have said in most countries children are not at home with their mothers, they are all in some kind of child care setting
English is also one of the most complicated languages for a native speaker to learn to read and write. Languages like Finnish, German and Italian have very transparent phonics codes and only take about 6 months for a native to master whereas English takes 18 months to 2 years.
I worked for a major Finnish employer for 6 years and really wasnt that impressed with the outcome of their education system. The UK staff were far more adaptable and able to think outside the box than the Finns. The Finns were excellent at their own very narrow fields but couldn't cope if something else was thrown at them.

I am more shocked that there are countries where formal reading and maths doesn't start until 7-8. That's so late!

Angel, this may seem late to you, but as I mentioned a way up on the thread, I have two dc. One started school in UK at age 4 and the other one didn't. She started age 6.5 years (not in UK). By the end of her first year of school (she was 7.5yrs) the levels that ds was at, at age 7.5 and the level she was on were the same... even though she had only been a school a year and ds had been at school 3 years at that point.

Also what I found quite interesting, is that in the Waldorf schools, they do not allow a child to start reading, until they lose their front teeth. All to do with maturity of the child. Whether is does in fact work the way they say, I am not sure, but most children do lose their front teeth at about age 6/7 anyway...

They don't allow a child to start reading? How on earth do they stop them?

DS is 4 and just started school. He hasn't been 'taught' to read but he is very interested in words, phonics etc. He is developing the early reading skills through his own interest and play and can read some words. He is now at the stage where he wants to be able to read more so will need some help to learn (good timing with just starting!).
It would be wrong to stop a child with a natural curiosity from learning to read

They don't stop them Sirzy but they don't teach them actively either. Your DS is a minority. Most 4 year olds have some interest but not the ability to learn to read.

So in the countries mentioned, your DS would of course be allowed to explore letters through play but not taught phonics or made to learn spellings.

murphys

You cannot compare your own children, they are not clones
My dd was reading fluently in reception, my ds didnt get to that stage until he was 7. However that doesnt mean he shouldn't have been in school until then. He learnt a lot a school and was ready in every other aspect and is a very intelligent boy and soaked up knowledge but has dyslexic problems so the reading/ writing side took a bit longer.

Thebodyloveschocolate - as most things then I assume it's different for each school.

I spent some time working in DS school in reception and nothing they did felt like work. They had a lot of free play time in which they thought they were playing but still learning - puzzles, shopping play, art, building blocks, cutting out, Lego, story time etc.

However year 1 was a big difference and quite a step up which I think was quite a shock to DS the amount of work.

In year 1 he got 3 x homework a week and had to read for 10 minutes every night plus extra projects they would do.

It doesn't sound like a lot but on top of all his clubs and work we did at home it was a lot for him - especially in the evenings when he was tired.