To think that teachers need more training for coping with violent/ SEN children

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29111528

Clearly a distress child should not have been locked in a room. However I can see how it could have happened. I feel that better training could have helped these teachers deal with a diffciult situation better.

For example training teachers in how to restrain a child safely, descalation techniques and improving communication skills would help. A school always has the option of calling the police for an out of control child.

[Hurr1cane]

Thanks kneequestion

[hazeyjane]

I think there is a bit of an assumption that there are far more special schools and they are easier to access than the reality.

There are 2 special schools within 20 miles of us, but they are both for children with ASD (ds has a genetic condition not ASD). The nearest 2 that don't specialise in ASD are a 50 minute drive away. One is a language unit, which ds is deemed as too severe for (he has no speech) and one specialises in complex learning disabilities, but several professionals who have met ds think he is not severe enough.

It is not as simple as thinking, 'xxx child shouldn't be in ms', there may be no other feasible option.

[NickiFury]

Why would more training lead to "normalisation" of violent behaviour? Sure more training can only lead to lessening of violent behavior? I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that by giving teachers training we would be making it acceptable for children to behave violently?

[ArsenicFaceCream]

What should be being taught is de-escalation techniques. Which head off meltdowns before they get going, 'violent' or otherwise.

[NickiFury]

Sorry that was for tangledupingin.

As others have said teachers have NO training in SEN. When my ds was diagnosed I went into school fully expecting them to tell me what to do next. We all just sat looking at each other with blank faces.

With dd no one noticed at all, it was me a complete lay person with no training re SN who noticed, got a referral and diagnosis and then wrote a report for school on how to deal with her. She's functioning brilliantly now mainly because everyone at her school read my report and follows it to the letter.

[Hurr1cane]

arsenicfacecream

Totally agree.

[Lezprechaun]

I understand that hurricane but then what do we do? We have a very strong 10 year old who has thrown bricks at my head in his most extreme moments and all we can do is stand and take it. We can't restrain him, we can't lock him anywhere and we have no support or help.

Yet at the same time social services quite happily drop hints about the younger children being removed if we can't protect them, because that's a solution yet a single day of respite is apparantly too expensive.

The misunderstanding and mistreatment of children with severe needs is frankly disgusting in this country and too many parents are driven to a point they can no longer cope.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Dd 7 has ASD and dev delays and used to lash out at her MS school as she dud not have the ability to deal with the over stimulus. It got so bad she started biting chikdren, and threw a dinner tray at a child, almost injuring them. She is now in a fantastic Autistic school and does not have tge behaviour seen in MS school. MS do not have the resources or facilities to deal with some mire moderate to severe SN. Sometimes like dd, mS is not the right place fir them due to the set up. It's different factors, not just one.

[Gatehouse77]

Ouryve

The school were fighting tooth and nail to get some children statemented - the problems were parents who didn't want their children 'labelled' but quite happy to insist they get special treatment or the LEA and their criteria.

I not apportioning blame at any one party involved. I think the expectations of the teachers is unfair, the effect on all children is unfair, for the parents being called in it's unfair, to those people fighting behind the scenes for resources, funding, diagnoses, etc. it's unfair.

[ilovechristmas1]

thanks all that responded,it's been an education (pardon the pun)

it sounds a minefield to be able to get the right education for your dc's

[NickiFury]

Another thing having worked in schools myself is most if the time the class teacher is completely uninvolved in anything to do with that child. It's the one to one doing all the work and who is the "expert" on that particular child. Funnily enough as it's VERY poorly paid the one to ones often move on at very short notice and the circus begins all over again.

There needs to be entire school training on how to deal with this child should they happen to cross paths. Not just the class teacher but every single member of staff that may have contact with them.

It's not actually that hard. You just have to make the effort to learn a few things, triggers and what to do if when all else fails it all still kicks off.

[TangledUpInGin]

No nickifury, I meant violence in schools shouldn't be normalised but training should be given to teachers to deal with violence IF it occurs.

[NickiFury]

Ok I just couldn't see why giving more training could be linked to violence being normalised.

[Gatehouse77]

NickiFury

Complete agree with the whole school approach.

One child kicked off badly at break time, hitting people and then destroying property belonging to other children. Who were standing there watching while the staff looked on helplessly as they weren't allowed to touch him.
Any other child would have been sent home but because a supply teacher was unaware of the 'special steps' needed to be taken he was kept at school and played on the computer (in a corridor where the computer bay is but also where all Junior and Y2 children went past for the toilets).
It tuned out that only 2 people knew what the 'steps' were!

[ArsenicFaceCream]

There needs to be entire school training on how to deal with this child should they happen to cross paths. Not just the class teacher but every single member of staff that may have contact with them.

It's not actually that hard. You just have to make the effort to learn a few things, triggers and what to do if when all else fails it all still kicks off.

YY Nicki

[Fairenuff]

I work in primary school and I agree that prevention and de-escalation can go a very long way towards minimising outbursts. All our staff have appropriate training, including lunch time supervisors.

Appropriate training is the most effective use of funds, imo, even more so than extra staff or 1-1 workers because a small skilled team works better than lots of staff with little or no training.

[Hurr1cane]

Lez I know it must be horribly difficult. I don't know the answer, unless you have a spare couple of hundred lying around to pay for your own training somehow, which won't be likely in a household struggling to support a child with severe needs.

They used to be able to train parents, it's something we fought for in our LEA with the help of professionals but it always came down to insurance.

Is there no way you can get some funding to provide a 'safe space' for your child?

I know a family in a similar situation to yours who ended up getting locks on the inside of doors so their other children could lock themselves in and make themselves safe in times of crises.

[freemanbatch]

my DD was suspected of having ADHD and aspergers, she was having violent and aggressive tantrums on a daily basis at school, other parents hated her and me and the kids ran scared.

I tried everything as did the school until one day she asked not to see her dad anymore. within weeks she was a normal kid and the idea of diagnosable SEN went out of the window, it took a few months for her to stop being on high alert all the time but by six months no contact all was well and she had friends and i was no longer being threatened with her being kicked out.

a couple of months ago the court said she had to see her dad, the next day she injured a child in her class and then spent the rest of the day crying about what she'd done. things went totally off the rails for four weeks while she had to see him and then when contact stopped she went back to normal.

she's being made to see him again next week and I fear for her and her classmates.

I do not accept violence, she knows what is expected of her and she breaks her heart at failing to live up to mine and her teacher expectation and at hurting her friends but the court insist she sees her dad and the violence is her cry for help.

teachers should not have to deal with violence but some kids really can't help it so better training is all we can do right now.

[soapboxqueen]

Another teacher who can attest to the lack of training. Anything I know about various sen and methods for dealing with them have come about through my own study or cost. Though I do find having a very long conversation with parents to be helpful in getting a fuller picture of their child. Not always but most of the time. I've lost count of the number of times I've been faced with a child that had complex needs, hadn't a clue how to support them and received blank looks when I've gone to slt for advice or support.

On the flip side I am the parent of a violent little boy with asd in mainstream school. We are currently fighting through the statementing process. His school have been fantastic with support.

While i can understand that people feel any violence should not be tolerated, looking at any situation in black and white terms does nobody any favours. My ds cannot help his out bursts. He is not being naughty or bad. He cannot help them. However they can be avoided or minimised with support from an adult. He has an absolute right to an education just as any other child has. It would be very easy to shuffle him off to some other provision. However there are none to serve him in my region, never mind local area. He is bright and able and I do not want his education sacrificed for everyone else's benefit. Special schools and alternative provisions are not the garden of Eden the general public seem to think they are. Some are excellent, some are poor. Most specialise meaning you might not have the right provision for every child. None have enough places for all of the children that might need them. If there was a school that suited my son's needs I would be seriously considering it but there aren't.

Nobody is suggesting that children should be kept in mainstream come hell or high water. Just that there are many things that can be done to support children that either don't happen or don't happen in all schools. Whether the reasons be funding or time or ethos.

[mumof6needssanity]

Lex,
I'm completely with you, my ds is 6 and has extremely violent meltdowns. In the last 2 weeks he has smashed several light bulbs, thrown a book case at me, thrown a tv at me. Ripped the stairgate off the wall and thrown it down the stairs at me trying to get up the stairs to protect my other dc. He has also split my then 11 week old babys head open. ( before anyone has a go at me my ds was happy on his ipad I went in the kitchen to put their dinner in the oven as I put the food in my dd's yelled for me I ran out of the kitchen to see my ds throw a toy towards my other dc and it hit my baby who was in his bouncy chair. Apparently the trigger was my 2 year old,touching the iPad screen and he lost the game as a result. How could I have de-escalated that? )
I am desperate for safe restraining training or well,anything tbh. No one will help or listen to me cahms, paeds, anxiety, childrens services. They have all told me my ds is dangerous and if he was an adult this would have triggered a crisis team but apparently they don't have one for children here.
He does go to a ms but bottles everything up there and releases once he has left school.

I agree teachers need training but us parents live this 24 hours a day and get nothing.
I don't think you can know all of a child's triggers either as something that will set my ds off one day, won't set my ds off another day.

I don't know what to do or where to turn but tbh and i don't really want this to happen but I wish my ds would have a violent meltdown at school because then someone might listen to me and we might get some help.

Sorry that was so long

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'I'm a bit shock at everyone just saying 'oh the teacher needs more training'.

Teachers aren't riot police. Most of them sign up to teach, not to do something which requires special training in how to restrain violent children. Surely if a child is violent - whether because of learning difficulties or psychological problems or whatever - that child should not be in mainstream school?'

Usually the child is violent BECAUSE their needs have gone far too long unmet due to the inadequacy of subsequent ignorant teachers of SEN.

Teachers might sign up to teach, but if they teach in a mainstream school then they do not get to choose which children. They must teach them all.

As far as teachers getting more training. Perhaps they should. However I am assuming that the profession requires some level of literacy. Most jobs require additional unpaid research/work outside to get up to speed in unchartered waters. I have no sympathy with those whinging that they haven't been trained in something so core to their job. Read a bloody book or google.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'Children who might need restraining need to be in special school which can meet their needs and support them properly.'

What is this fantasy world you live in? Where is this fantastic provision. Are you alluding to the myth that teachers in Special Needs school have adequate training? Or are you just preferring segregation in order to prevent a child who has been failed from dragging down the rest of his/her class?

[mumof6needssanity]

Exactly star. I would happily put my ds into a ss if I could
A) get a dx
B) get anyone to listen to me
C) get a ehcp
D) find a ss that would/could have him. Cope with his issues and still educate him

Oh look who just saw a flying pig?

[Aeroflotgirl]

Freem what if you stop contact, can't you present the evidence of her improved behaviour when she doesn't have to see her dad, in court.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'1 week in a school that listened and he was never ever aggressive again. Ever.'

This ^^

Teachers do themselves (and definitely their SEN children) no favours by pretending to parents that they are experts in SEN because they know they ought to be.

Whilst I know that many (that I have met anyway) prefer the outreach model of partnership working over the equal or even unequal in parent bias partnership, the education system would be so much better for all if they acknowledged openly what the parents of children with SEN already know and then became willing to learn.