to think, well said, Maxine Peake.

[MrHughJass]

She's talked about how having children is selfish.
Yes, yes and yes, I say.

I'm fed up with people equating not having children with selfishness. What's more self centred than the urge to populate a crowded world with more people with your genes, that you happen to want to have around?

If it's all about forfeiting your own (direct) needs for those of others, then don't make a person to fulfil that role. There are plenty of people and animals already in existence who could do with your help.

You only have to look at the ferocity with which parents will compete (outdo each other's offspring) to see that breeding is far from the selfless enterprise it's sometimes made out to be.
Focusing on the needs of your own children (often at the expense of others, by definition, when there are limited resources of one kind or another) is selecting children who matter to you and promoting their welfare. The only difference between your child and the child over the road is that they are related to you. That's why you're so "selfless" about them.

So, have kids if you want them, by all means. It's a human urge - go for it. But please don't think it makes you into some wonderful being who has selflessly forfeited their rights to expensive haircuts and meals out. It's just a different form of selfishness.

Nice one, Maxine.

That is all.

[OwlCapone]

I think the selfishness attached to both having and, in some cases, not having chosen is the same.

It is selfish to choose to have children because you are doing it purely for your own wants and needs. Equally, you can be too selfish to give up your own wants and needs to make space for a child. Both involve wanting what you want with really thinking about anyone else.

Neither is better or worse than the other really so tents kind of a pointless argument.

[LittleBearPad]

But who says different Gordy.

Do you know many people who go through pregnancy, the toddler years, school years etc with a rictus grin saying 'I'm doing this for the world'.

[squoosh]

'Turns out she is not a respected anthropologist, but is an actress who played some old brass in Shameless.'

She's such a talented actor, on stage and TV screen. One of the best British TV actors I'd say.

[5Foot5]

But I have heard too many people (with kids) use the phrase "too selfish to have kids" now.

I don't think I have heard anyone say this about themselves or others, but I have heard pople speculating that someone might be too set in their ways now to have children.

[VerucaInTheNutRoom]

Lol @ windchime.

OP, you did not misinterpret me. I don't know anyone who thinks that having children is a selfless thing to do or that not having children is selfish.

[gordyslovesheep]

no one Littlebear she said it in response to something said to her

also being an actor doesn't mean she can't have opinions - she's an intelligent and articulate human being - as an actor she happened to be interviewed - hence the quote

[MrHughJass]

windchime, may we please know your occupational history so we can decide whether or not to listen to your opinion?

[Gen35]

I've always thought the drive to have your own biological kids was a selfish urge, but that's separate from the sacrifices that being a good parent can involve (I.e. Cutting back on work, travel etc). I feel sorry for anyone unable to conceive, it's a gruelling and heartbreaking thing.

[101handbags]

I think everybody who's commented on this article but not read the whole article should do so before commenting... the DM has taken one sentence in a fairly substantial piece in The Times out of context and blown it up out of all proportion. I said to my DP last night that this is what would happen. Oh and I don't have any kids because I don't really like them in large doses and I DO like going to theatre several times a week, going on holidays, weekends reading the Sunday papers with a pot of tea etc. Does that make me selfish? I don't know. I suppose that's for other people to tell me. Which they frequently do.

[bakingaddict]

If everybody suddenly lost the desire to want and have kids, our species would be fucked in a couple of generations.

It's hardwired into us for a reason so we can continue as a species for many 1000's of years but at the moment the human race can withstand a smaller proportion choosing to remain childless for their own reasons so I see neither side as being selfish. Both sides have valid reasons for doing what they do

[DiaDuit]

I DO like going to theatre several times a week, going on holidays, weekends reading the Sunday papers with a pot of tea etc. Does that make me selfish? I don't know

I think it could only be selfish if your choices were detracting from another person, i.e; your decision to go to the theatre meant for example less money for someone else in the family. However as that someone else doesnt actually exist and no-one is being affected by your choices then i dont think it can be called selfish. It's just personal preference wrt how you spend your time and money.

[backbystealth]

We have biological urges to have children ('broodiness') in order for the huan race to prevail.

No matter what reasons people think there are for them wanting kids, that's the drive behind it.

I realise I've probably X posted with dozens of others but haven't RTFT.

[backbystealth]

I have no idea what the huan race is. I meant human. Maybe I shouldn't continue to procreate as I'm pulling the gene pool down...

[Natalia32]

Some people with kids are selfish too. No one should get a medal for following through with what they started with when they decided to have kids. In fact, people who acknowledge they value their lifestyle/work etc over having kids are acting in a supremely responsible and selfless way by not bringing kids into that that equation. Not everyone shows that foresight (see feckless parents, horrendous relationships etc etc). people who feel they can judge childless people are merely looking for a validation/glorification of their parental status.

[OwlCapone]

We have biological urges to have children ('broodiness') in order for the huan race to prevail.

No matter what reasons people think there are for them wanting kids, that's the drive behind it.

I don't think that is necessarily the case now. People make conscious decisions about whether to have children or how many to have. These decisions are based on many factors including stuff like finances which have no root in biology.

[MyFairyKing]

Being alive may be selfish but many people believe suicide is selfish. We can't win!

[backbystealth]

Owl - even though you are weighing up finances etc, your need or desire for the baby is still at the root of it and is still a biological urge.

We might tell ourselves it's to feel loved, to love, to nurture, for company, because we enjoy children's company or want to bring up lovely people to make our lives and the world richer (then of course factoring in practicalities as we are evolved animals who don't just blunder through life following basic urges) but it's still biologically driven.

[sherbetpips]

I think it depends on how you view the statement selfish. Its not selfish not to have kids but in doing so you 'may' get to lead a more self centred life. Not for everyone of course, many people have parents to look after busy work schedules, etc but the thinking is that if you havent got to plan your life around kids you can instead plan it around yourself - aka be more selfish. I know a heck of a lot of selfish parents who really are selfish!

[Greenwayslide]

Well the OP isn't wrong I remember a thread a little while ago where a couple had both decided not to have children many years later the woman changed her mind. Some people on that thread actually called her partner selfish for not wanting to have children as though the OP was any less selfish for wanting to have children.

People have children for themselves at least the majority in this country do. You don't see many people having children for the sole purpose of enriching society.

[francesdrake]

I saw this on the Mail site this morning - as others have pointed out, it's a small quote from a much bigger interview in the Times, and I'm appalled, if not surprised, by the way this one sentence has been taken out of context purely to pitch women against women in a 'who's the most selfish?' slagging match in the comments. It's particularly malicious for the Mail to set up Maxine Peake as some sort of 'Breeders are selfish' human pinata, when the larger interview discussed her own painful struggles with her fertility, and what it means to her. Nasty.

[TheSameBoat]

Where do these mythical super competitive mums live? I've never met any of them!

[LondonRocks]

People I know who don't want kids have told me they don't want their lives disrupted. That's selfish.

So is expecting others to bring the next generation(s) up to pay for us ALL in our dotage.

[OnlyLovers]

People I know who don't want kids have told me they don't want their lives disrupted. That's selfish.

Why? Isn't it just a choice? How dare you judge like that?

So is expecting others to bring the next generation(s) up to pay for us ALL in our dotage.

I don't 'expect' other people to have kids to pay for me in my dotage. As far as I can tell so far in life, people just do keep on having them and me expecting them to or not expecting them to wouldn't make one bit of difference to that.

[edamsavestheday]

I've always been puzzled by the claim that not having children is selfish. As if reproducing is some kind of moral obligation. It isn't.

As others have explained, there are plenty of arguments you can make for having children being the selfish choice.

I think some people trot out the 'childlessness = selfish' line without ever actually having thought it through logically.

[Darkesteyes]

Maxine is one of the best actresses we have. There was a lovely interview with her in last months Red.

This interview was much more balanced.