Fat -v- thin body image dilemma

[Topsycurvy]

Morning all, I've nc for this as I fear a backlash from fatty haters.

I was having a really good think about this yesterday and would like your thoughts. In a nutshell I want to know, with regards to my two daughters, should I encourage 'be comfortable in your own skin, acceptance, look after yourself, not about number on scales/dress size, beauty doesn't = skinny' OR 'being overweight = unhealthy, therefore being slim/healthy BMI is the only way'. ?

Obviously I would phrase both views more sensitively! Myself, I'm 5ft 3, 11 st 12 and, according to BMI chart, I'm obese. I'm size 16. I've just started c25k at the gym, I don't drink, I love cooking and eating. I am more often than not from the 'acceptance' camp and feel strongly that I am who I am, I've achieved so much in my life yet still feel I'm judged by my weight/looks. So most of the time I'm happy with what I see in the mirror, love love love the body image movement/embrace your body stuff.... but this is peppered with days of 'get out the weight watchers books you need to lose 2.5 stone'. But that's not me, I hate the dieting industry, the pressure (perceived?) to be thin, but obviously I want myself and girls to be healthy in mind and body...

Aibu to be totally confused?

I say encourage a healthy lifestyle and acceptance. My mum put me on a diet at 12 years old when I was 5' 5" and just shy of 10st - what I wouldn't give to be that now! She policed my food obsessively and I was 15st 10lbs by the time I was 20 thanks to years of binges, secret eating and starving myself. I've lost a lot of the weight and I'm a size 14 now but I have horrendous issues with food that ended up putting me in therapy for OCD and binge eating disorder.

Don't be too strict, it could push them the other way.

I think promoting healthy eating and healthy portion sizes along with living an even vaguely healthy life is the way to go.

Particularly portion sizes, lots of people just don't know.

Bmi calculators aren't that great. They don't take into account muscle weight, many athletes are 'obese' according to them.

vaguely active* lifestyle.

Got a bit attached to 'healthy' there!

'Fat' and 'thin' are very loaded words these days and are tied to a a fashion/image ideal, rather than a healthy/unhealthy state of being. BMI isn't perfect but it was devised as a tool for measuring the weight/height ratio for people with sedentary lifestyles, so for most of the population it is actually a useful tool.

It's great that you can model healthy self-esteem for your DDs but you wouldn't want them smoking or drinking to excess. Weight is the same thing. It is not healthy to be overweight so don't tell them it's OK, but there is no need to talk about looks at all; focus on health, energy and strength. Keeping your BMI in the right range for your height is a part of that.

Bmi is pretty accurate for women. It's very difficult for a woman to gain that much muscle mass, it would require very dedicated training, and people who are into that don't need to check their bmi.However ,height waist ratio is considered important nowadays, so bmi definitely isn't the only indicator to correct weight.
I agree with everyone else, emphasise a healthy diet, correct portion sizes and some exercise. I really wish we could get this message across, especially to young people. Health and fitness are far more important than appearance or the number on the label inside our clothes.

Very interesting thread OP! My take would be this- fat shame does not help anyone lose weight, I have found losing weight very hard and a feeling of self loathing, encouraged by the diet and beauty industries who have lots of money to make off the back of people hating themselves, makes it an almost guaranteed defeat. If on top of all of my friends, role models in the media, boys/girls/whatever flavour I liked best, my mother was saying as well "You shouldn't be fat" I'd have probably ended up with an even unhealthier relationship with food and a much more serious eating disorder. It seems that everyone in the world is already telling them they must be skinny, their value is in what they look like and getting fat is the worst thing. For my DD, I encourage a healthy relationship with food, no guilt or using it for comfort which was one of my major problems, and teach her how to cook from ingredients. I make sure the homemade stuff in the house is more delicious than the junk food! We talk about various nutritionists' findings, that sort of thing.

I guess for me I tell her as long as she is happy, then sod what anyone else thinks. You only have one body, it's entirely yours, and you want to give it back thoroughly worn out and properly used! Also as a side not, for someone to be overweight, their digestive giblets must be working. High blood sugar, glucagon released, stored as glycogen in the cells... If you are overweight, everything is working to plan, the system is working as it should. The only health risk is the side effects of the weight itself, increased pressure on the heart etc. If people are underweight it is more likely (in my unscientific opinion!) to be because of a health problem than an overweight person. I think there is a study somewhere that shows people who are a little overweight tend to recover better from illnesses and things like that, although obviously I need to do more research!

I agree with Aymamita. The challenge, of course, in a world in which young women are pressurised into thinking their value resides in looking a certain, very specific way, is to encourage girls to think of a healthy BMI as simply a standard health maintenance issue, like looking after your teeth.

There's no need to see this stance as allying yourself with the diet industry.

I was just popping back to mention height/waist ratios, see FLM has beaten me to it!

There's a big movement for "strong is the new skinny" and has been for the last couple of years. It's a lifestyle choice of eating well most of the time (perhaps rather better than many can afford but you get the idea) and exercise being a part of your daily life.

I try to stick to it as much as possible and then remember that wine has calories in it too

Hi thanks for all the responses!

So basically this 'eat healthy, eat well, do exercise, look after your body' and (goes unsaid but made to feel) wherever you land weight wise/size wise that's how you're meant to be and you should love and accept yourself as you are. This is NOT a 'get out clause' for being fat (talking to myself here!), you do actually have to have to do these things (eat healthy etc....)

Pretty much Topsy.

There is no point pining to look like Kate Moss (as an example) when you are simply not built that way. People do come in different shapes and sizes. A woman can naturally be a size 6 and be heathy, another can naturally be a size 14 and be healthy.

Also, getting them into cooking themselves might be helpful. I know I started paying far more attention to what I was eating once I had a few meals under my belt.

Topsy, if you're eating a healthy diet and exercising but are still overweight then you are eating too much.
It's up to you, of course, but I prefer to be in the normal health range, both for myself and my children. I don't think that is encouraging a negative body image. It's important not to get emotional about this, the fact is we don't need to carry too much fat on our bodies. We aren't in a feast/famine situation anymore.
I would just try and avoid words like 'skinny'. It isn't good to be too thin, but it isn't good to be overweight either.

They are going to get the message "skinny is beautiful" everywhere they look. I would try to model and encourage a healthy lifestyle incorporating good food choices and exercise, but as far as possible bolster their self esteem based on attributes other than looks.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that BMI, like any other epidemiological measure, is going to form a normal distribution. So in fact, even if everyone at healthily and exercised, there would be some proportion either end who were outside the 'normal' (say 2 standard deviations round the mean). Those people are not any less healthy- as evidenced by overweight people living longer and having fewer health complications than 'normal' BMI individuals. It is best to ignore non-scientists spouting off about scientific issues really. I think the most important thing your daughters could learn is that they are more than their bodies, but that it is useful to maintain a body where possible that can manage the physical activities you wish to partake of (these will differ between individuals- a mountain climber will need to maintain a higher level of physical fitness than an office worker, obviously). They will come up against enough people who have unsolicited opinions about their bodies, without their mother holding these.

I forgot to add, there's also a guide online for wrist measurement/height ratio, which indicates what your frame is. This can help you to aim for a realistic weight for you. I have a large frame on a medium height body ,so I aim for a bmi in the 24-25 range, because I know I'm not meant to be tiny.

I think the approach would differ depending on the person. yes people are built differently. I know people who can't gain weight as well as those who can't lose it.

I think there is a very thin line between acceptance and enabling and also between helping and shaming.

it's about time we stopped making gaining weight such a horrible thing and give people positive encouragement if that is what they are looking for. make it easier for people to talk about it instead of feeling like they need to make an excuse for their weight.

with my dd I try to model a healthy diet for her. we have open dialogue about food and what is good for you and why and what are treats. I believe in everything in moderation and information being very important. I think if children are being brought up with a healthy attitude towards food then it makes it so much easier for them as adults.

I encourage my dd to know how many treats are enough as my parents tend to go overboard so at seven she is able to somewhat monitor it herself when I'm not there and make good decisions

I think a healthy lifestyle with healthy eating choices (but also unhealthy ones too, there is nothing wrong with eating junk in moderation) is the way to go.

Dp was a fat child/teen but was very active and fit as encouraged by his army father. He lost a lot of weight in his late teens and kept most of it off. He is now an active, though still a bit overweight, adult and is still pretty fit.

By comparison his mum and sister are both larger ladies, but were never especially active, and have only got bigger as time goes on and are not very fit at all.

I suppose what I'm saying is, size is less relevant as long as you do keep active.

I'm 11 1/2st and 5'3 but I did in a size 8-10 on top and 10-12 on the bottom as most of my excess weight comes from muscle. By bmi I have a bmi if 28.6 which is classed at the heavy end of overweight nearly obese. You just have to look at me to know that's not true

My concern about an overweight young woman would not be how she looks - they can look stunning - but the longterm implications for her health, and whether she will continue to gain weight. If you are overweight, you are more prone to a range of health problems, put undue pressure on your joints and - in extreme cases - really limit what you can actually do.

I agree with mommy2 about the thin lines between acceptance and enabling, and helping and shaming. It's really hard to give advice without sounding patronising or critical esp if you are a bit of a rake yourself.

The world is a hard, judgemental place, but I want my DC to be a good weight for their own longterm health more than anything else.

As a previously overweight mum of a teen with an eating disorder (and low BMI) I'd say self acceptance is the first rule, tolerance of others alongside this too, and acceptance that not everyone is the same. Second rule is 'healthy for ME' and learning what that means for oneself and family members sharing meals and lifestyle.

I try to frame things for my children in terms of self-care. So I find exercise that I really enjoy and let them see me enjoying it, and encourage them to try out lots of sports to find out what they like.

With food, I encourage delicious, nutrient rich food with no grazing.

I am overweight, and trying to lose weight in a slow, sustainable way. I talk about it as having had a time where I was so tired that I didn't take look after my body properly and give it what I needed to be strong and healthy and energetic, and that because I have a bit too much fat in my body, it makes it harder to do some things, and puts more strain on my body, so I am more likely to get injured, and it can be uncomfortable, so I want to get to the amount of fat that allows my body to be at its healthiest and to run and do cartwheels and climb up things easily.

Good point mehsMum . It's very common to slide into a pattern of slowly gaining weight, even just a few pounds a year, getting used to being heavier and heavier. Half a stone a year (very easy to gain without really noticing) is 70 (5 stones) pounds over 10 years . If we woke up one morning 5 stones heavier then we would notice the impact but because it goes on so gradually we don't really notice.
For this reason I think it's important to be careful about not gaining weight without obsessing over it.

BMI is accurate for most people. It drives me round the BEND when people - usually overweight people - trot out the line about it being a useless measuring tool because it would put most athletes at overweight.

Look at the weights of professional athletes. When they're competing, apparently Victoria Pendleton weighs around 60kg, Jessica Ennis-Hill is 57kg. Both, therefore, around 9 1/2 stone. And they are about as muscular as you can imagine average-height women being.

Yes, there are exceptions when it comes to fifteen-stone male rugby players but these are few and far between, and the same logic cannot be applied to the general population.

I'm 5ft 6ins. My BMI says I am "healthy" anywhere between around 8 1/2 stone and 11stone. Which is about right. At 11 stone (and I've been there) I'm a chubby size 12/14. At the moment I'm 10 stone and a size 10. I know that different people carry weight differently, but a "healthy" BMI covers a broad range of weights.
If people are far above the top end of a healthy BMI, they're kidding themselves - and vanity sizing etc don't help.

Anyway, back to the OP. To be fair, OP, I think what you do is far more important than what you say. Make exercise an important part of your family's life and lead by example with healthy eating.

I hope that by regularly going running, cycling and walking together my DS will see exercise as something "normal", not something that people do as a chore or purely for weight loss.

In terms of what you say, I think it depends on the child as to how they take it. My mother was very much of the "fat-is-bad" club, but me and my sister grew up completely differently. I'm a size 10, she's a size 22. Both raised exactly the same.

The key difference between us was, as soon as she was able to help herself to food, my sister would eat and eat and eat. She also hates exercise and will get a taxi if even travelling less than a mile. Whereas exercise is a huge part of my life, and if there's biscuits in the house I don't have to eat them all at once.

I guess it comes back to the nature/nurture debate. You never know how your children are going to grow up, but if you instil healthy eating and exercise in them from a young age, then they've got that healthy grounding there.