To think I should report someone for a fraudulent visa application? Sorry, long!

[Moralpickle]

NCd because I'm identifiable, have been vague where I can to not out myself. I'm in a quandary, please advise me wise MNers.

An acquaintance who is living outside of the UK is planning on applying for an entry visa for their spouse who is a non-EU national (under more favourable EU regulations) to move to the UK permanently. In order to qualify for this route the EU spouse must have lived and worked in another EU state before returning to the UK with their third national spouse (Surinder Singh route). This is a perfectly legal thing and is not an abuse of the EU rights of free movement.

However, this person is not working but has arranged for their spouses relative to make them a 'contract' and provide them with payslips and an employers letter etc etc all to fraudulently obtain an EEA family permit for their spouse. I am 100% this is the case as they have admitted it to me after several months of asking my advice (I know an awful lot about this route to the UK, DH is a non-EU national). Part of me is pissed off because I know a lot of people who have had to rely on this route to bring their spouses to the UK (financial threshold for bringing a foreign spouse to the UK is ridiculous) and I don't want to see it abused as it leads to UKVI cracking down on genuine applicants and making it harder for everyone else. I told them it was a bad idea because they could be caught out and was told that it's fine because the relative knows what story to tell if they call to verify employment.

I feel very strongly about this but I don't know if it's morally okay for me to report them? And if I do, how? Also, due to the nature of the application the non-eu spouse will not receive a 10 year ban or be punished, their spouse would just have to actually have genuine & effective employment in the host state for a minimum of 3 months. They are planning in trying their luck at the border for an entry stamp rather than applying for the permit in advance.

No "the Uk is full" bollocks please, I am very pro freedom of movement within the EU but this doesn't sit right with me. Feel free to tell me it's none of my business though & well done if you got through all that!

Oh, you're more ambivalent about it than your OP indicated. Why not campaign about it instead... and hope the UK doesn't secede from the EU?!

I thought that reporting it would be the right thing to do but I'm strangely glad it isn't. I've clearly been brainwashed by the DM et al

I do actively campaign against the family reunification rules in the UK and am very grateful that the Eu door is open

Oh and dreaming, those are the guidelines under which their application would be refused but their is nothing stopping them from making a new, genuine application

*there

"may have their rights under the Directive refused, terminated or withdrawn" -- doesn't terminated imply more than just a one-time refusal?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time but I really got screwed by UKBA and I have zero trust in them. They do not follow the law.

It depends on the context but for the sake of a family permit application it doesn't have that sort of effect.

Legally, there are no grounds for refusal unless the applicant is dangerous/ a terrorist. If they go ahead and make the application with the fake documents and UKVI realise they will refuse. They may give a ban. This ban is meaningless for future family permit applications and all future applications have to be considered on their own merit, subsequent applications have to be considered afresh.

The applicant could have lived illegally in a number of a EU states, committed a few minor crimes, have a 10 year ban from the Uk and they would still be eligible for the FP if their spouse has lived and worked with them elsewhere in the EU. I think it's good that previous immigration history cannot be taken into account. This wouldn't even matter for future citizenship applications provided they resided in the Uk with the residence card after legally obtaining the family permit.

I'm not going to do anything about it, it's their problem and would mean bad karma for me. I think it is very wrong to lie on visa applications though.

And unfortunately I know only too well that they don't follow the law, let alone EU regulations and case law. I sometimes really wish DH had been born in the UK.

You sound like a spiteful interfering busybody. What do you have to gain from reporting other than the knowledge that you made it difficult for a couple who love eachother to build a life together as they wish to. I really can't bear people of your mindset. Disgusting.

wtf has it got to do with you?

Err maybe you should read the whole thread?

My mindset? That the immigration rules should be followed? Fraud is fraud! And their actions can impact immigration rules funnily enough so that affects anyone who has a foreign spouse.

And they would be preventing themselves from living together. I'm not trying to fraudulently obtain an entry visa, they are. All the Uk citizen had to do would be to work for 3 months and provide a contract and payslips it sounds like a big ask but not when you compare it to the barbaric uk rules. They are already living abroad, finding a job is the easy part believe it or not. Instead they have chosen to get fake documents, involving a family member in their fraud. Will find figures for the number of couples who followed this route legally in the last year if you want, if they can manage it...

YANBU! Report this, any abuse of the system should be reported ASAP.

Hopefully the HO will pick up on those that abuse the system and impose tighter restrictions for those trying to migrate to the UK but if you know someone who is abusing the system morally you should report it.

From what you wrote, you are morally obliged to report them.

I don't see how this is any of your business and who will get affected by it.

I'm a big rule follower, but wouldn't say anything.
I think the Non EU spouse rules are ridiculous, you can't even have a co sponsor like a parent help with the income amounts. Even the US allows a co sponsor to make up the income.

God I hate it when people don't RTFT

Dh and I are another couple who are able to be together thanks to a time of kinder immigration rules than now. If the system was as it is now I guess our marriage wouldn't have had a chance and our lovely nearly adult sons would never have existed.

Me, I'd leave them to it.

YABU if you think the UKBA will give a single shiny shit or do anyhow about it.

Fwiw I don't think the Uk should have tighter restrictions, quite the opposite.

I think rather than teaching them a lesson (because that's all reporting them would do and that's petty I know see) it's more likely to give the HO ammunition for anti-immigration propaganda.

Agreed Squinkies! I thought the general consensus in the UK, not just MN, was that the rules are a good thing to curb immigration.

Now see. Sorry my English has deteriorated

Well you don't have to do anything then surely? No moral pickle at all.

RTFT I decided not to do anything, it's their problem!

Btw when immigration routes are restricted it's usually a reaction to public pressure and previous abuses. Remember the student visa drama? The Uk can't close this off but it can make arbitrary regulations that have to be met even though they are in contravention of EU law. It can take years to challenge these decision & appeal and overturn them. This affects everyone who wants to make an application under the same regs.

Fwiw I don't think the Uk should have tighter restrictions, quite the opposite Why?

If you would like you can PM me the details and I will report them for you. Then your own 'moral compass' shall remain intact.

You must really, really hate these people OP

Err because I think it's unfair to restrict the movement if people who are married to British citizens. My DH is a non-eu citizen.

Thanks but I'll just leave it! I don't want yo be responsible for them getting caught really! I understand how hard it is! I've been there! I just wish they hadn't resorted to lying

Getting a bit carried away with explanation points, sorry.

I find it helps to read more than the OP Hollie...

MoralPickle It is disgusting that you are aware of non eu nationals trying to fraudulently gain British citizenship yet you will not report it due to your 'morals'. This is exactly why the HO should continue to tighten restrictions.

Bring on the day we leave the EU to eradicate all this free movement crap.

DFOD they are not trying to gain citizenship, only uk residence and at this point only entry clearance. They shouldn't be a in a position where they need to use EU laws (properly) to get back to the UK, if you're married to a Brit you should be able to live with your bloody spouse in the UK.

IF the UK leaves the EU it will be a sad day indeed. It's a shame you don't agree and lucky you for not falling in love with a foreigner.