BIL/SIL- are we being unreasonable? (warning- very long)

[iamsoannoyed]

This is more of a vent than AIBU. I know it's a difficult situation all round and we are all probably being a bit unreasonable.

I've posted about BIL/SIL before. SIL has a progressive degenerative disease, BIL is her main carer (their choice, they have refused to have help) and they have a large family (6 children). We had a problem earlier this year, as for a number of years now BIL has unable to work the family farm due as he was caring for his wife(FIL signed it over equally to DH and BIL), leaving DH to do it all. There were issues as DH was exhausted by doing all the work but BIL not happy to pay someone to do his share of the work.

Anyway, we have recently bought out their share of the farm, after a long tussle all round as to what was best. I know BIL/SIL were not entirely happy with the situation, and relations between us have been strained. As BIL refused to consider all other options we had to say "either you buy us out, we buy you out or we force the sale of the farm to a 3rd party". BIL could not raise the cash to buy us out, so we bought him out. PIL were upset, but understood things could not carry on as they were, and FIL in particular was angry that BIL would not agree to any other form of compromise that would allow the shared partnership to continue.

SIL is not so well at the moment, and I know she has been relying on MIL to do a lot of extra childcare. Totally understandable, and I am fully aware their arrangements have nothing to do with me. It does mean DC's have seen less of their GPs than normal, but that's not a big issue really and we all understand that at the moment that's kind of the way things are.

I have a conference (3 days- but will be away 4 nights) coming up which is for work, it was arranged a while ago and PIL have agreed to take our DCs while DH gets on with work- they are going to stay at my parents holiday cottage for 10 days and DCs are very excited about this. I should point out that our DCs are only going to spend 4 days with PIL, and then go to my parents for 3 days, who are then going to bring them home. PIL are then going to have the other 6 days as a break on their own. PIL have also said they are looking forward to spending time with their DGCs and to getting a break on their own.

PIL volunteered to take them away, that was not our idea and we would have been happy if they had only been looking after them during the day time when DH was working (and obviously if they hadn't wanted to look after the DCs, we'd have organised some other form of childcare).

Anyway, BIL and SIL are now kicking up a fuss as they want MIL to look after their DCs that week- they have known about this for ages and have had plenty of time to arrange something else. They "forgot" apparently, and now don't want to look elsewhere as "nothing good" will be available at this short notice.

They think as PIL will not lose any money on the cottage as it is owned by my parents, they should just cancel. SIL has said she can't understand why we always get "preferential treatment" and nobody ever thinks about all the extra needs she has. I know the recent situation where PIL essentially "took our side" must make them feel raw, but PIL have done an awful lot for us all and don't deserve to be put in the middle of this. If anything, until recent events I'd say theve done more for BILs family than for DH and our family (and I don't have an issue with that, just stating a fact). This includes building BIL/SIL a custom designed house shortly after SILs mobility became problematic, as well as doing a lot of childcare over the years.

PIL are adamant they are going, but MIL feels guilty that BIL/SIL feel that way and doesn't want any more upset in the family. FIL feels angry that BIL/SIL are being manipulative and has told them so. I think things may have got quite heated, but as neither I, DH or MIL were there at the time, I can't be sure.

SIlL has since phoned and demanded I tell PIL that we have found alternative childcare, so don't need them anymore. She says she's fed up of DH coming before BIL, and our DC "have got everything". Not only that, she is "flabbergasted" that we would expect her and BIL to have to arrange extra childcare on top of everything else they have to deal with- they thought PIL would want to be there for them at this time and are hurt they would want to take our DC away when they and their DCs need help.

I'm afraid I wasn't very diplomatic, partly because I'm fed up of them refusing to take responsibility for anything and partly because I felt that she was laying it on a bit thickly. I said that I had no intention of telling PIL any such thing and that as I don't interfere with their arrangements with PIL, I don't really see why they should interfere with ours. I also said that they have had plenty of time to arrange childcare, and I don't see why my DCs have to miss out on their time with their GPs. I got quite cross, but was not rude and didn't shout. SIL said we were all being "selfish" and then hung up. BIL then phoned DH and PIL saying I'd upset SIL and "that's the last thing she needs".

I might be more understanding if this had been a last minute plan, or BIL/SIL hadn't been able to find childcare despite trying exhaustively. But as they haven't I feel it's a bit of a piss-take. I also think my DC should get time to spend with their GPs, and that to cancel would be unfair. On top of all that, PIL deserve a break- recent events and looking after their grandchildren more often has taken it's toll. I think it is selfish of BIL and SIL to expect the entire family to revolve around them, when they have the ability to get extra help but refuse to do so.

That said, I think BIL and SIL are both quite stressed, and I know are quite resentful towards us following recent events which is colouring things. I was a bit sharper than I'd intended to be with SIL and I didn't intend to upset her. DH agrees with me on the whole, but does feel guilty that BIL thinks he is being favoured by their parents.

I saw them today when they came round, and SIL started up again about us cancelling this. I said I had said everything I had to say on the matter when we last spoke about it, and thought we should leave it at that. SIL then burst into tears and they left. I now feel bad about upsetting them, but also angry with them.

I don't think we've been unreasonable not to cancel arrangements, and I do get why they feel the way they do, even if I don't agree with them.

I think it would be better if we just let things settle between us all, and gave BIL/SIL some space- DH wonders if we should "do more". I'm not in favour of this, as past experience suggests if we start down that road again, it will just prevent them getting the help they need and it will become expected that we'll do whatever they need regardless of the effects it has on us and our DC (which is what happened with the farm business). Also, as we both work full-time what we could do is actually quite limited. I'm happy to help out in emergencies, or now and again- just not for it to become a "drop everything every time they call situation" which is what I fear it would become.

AIBU?

PS Sorry for the epically long post!

[iamsoannoyed]

ADish

SIL parents are divorced- her father lives several hundred miles away with her step-mother. I think they get on ok, but only see them 3 or 4 times per year.

Her mother now lives around 90 minute drive away, very close to SIL's sister and her family (3 children). Again no relationship issues that I know of and see each other fairly regularly (maybe once a month or so, not sure) as far as I know. I don't think SIL family are asked to do much day-to-day due to distance/travelling time.

SIL's mum has done the odd day or two of childcare over the holiday (picked the youngest 4 up and had them for a weekend at the beginning of the summer holiday). I don't know if SIL/BIL have asked for more help and been turned down or simply not asked.

Thegreylady
Could your pil perhaps take the two youngest away with them and your dc?
Not really- I think they could fit in the holiday cottage easily enough but PIL are only looking after my DC for 4 days then going to my parents who are then going to bring them home and then stay with us for a few days. I am not prepared to ask my parents to take on another 2 children for that time and also I think PIL need the break away by themselves for the remaining 6 days.

Not only that, I don't think it's fair my DC have to miss out on time with their GPs (on both sides) because BIL/SIL have not organised things (for whatever reason). Again, I worry if we give in on this, every time something comes up which doesn't suit BIL/SIL, then we'll be in the same situation. I do feel sorry for them and I don't know how I'd cope in their situation, but they have had plenty of time to arrange things and chose not to. I don't mean to sound heartless but I am getting weary of their problems dominating everyone else's lives when not necessary- i.e. of course in an emergency we'd drop everything and help in any way we could, but day-to-day I think they have to sort things out for themselves far more and accept the help they need.

[pictish]

You don't sound heartless, and I think you're right. x

[iamsoannoyed]

Roadkill and tinkly

thanks for your points. I do try to remember things are terrible for them both, the future isn't exactly bright and full of hope and they must be frightened of what it holds for them and their children. I don't envy them at all.

At the same time, whether consciously or not, they are being manipulative and very selfish at times- and on occasions, taking the piss.

There are things they can manage but don't want to. They knew about this week away, and chose not to organise alternatives or even mention there was an issue until now- when they fully expect everyone should drop everything and rearrange their lives to suit them.

They have chosen not to get help that would make their lives easier, and ease the burden on everyone else. These are choices which they are absolutely within their rights to make, of course. But at the same time, I think we (DH and I) need to decide for ourselves the extent of the help which we are prepared to offer. PIL need to do the same.

[whois]

I remember you old thread about the farm and am very happy you all found a resolution. Well done!

I'm 100% with you on this situation also. BIL and SIL have purposefully created a difficult child are situation. Not sure what else you and PILs can do except stick to your guns. Even if you offered some practical and workable solutions I don't think BIL/SIL would go for them because they are only lrepRed to accept on solution (pil doing their childcare)

[YellowTulips]

OP - I think anyone who has read this thread and your previous in it's entirety are fully supportive.

It's obvious you have a great deal of sympathy for your BIL/SIL and over the years have gone way beyond the call of duty.

The problem still remains that their stance is a reliance on family that isn't sustainable whist refusing outside help. This is compounded by emotional blackmail.

I personally feel sorry for their circumstances but have little sympathy or tolerance for their manipulative behaviour.

[SisterMoonshine]

The thing is your parents could have had another booking for the cottage for this time. So it effects them too if it is cancelled.

[PrimalLass]

If they don't want a PA for your SIL then they do really need a nanny. It's so unfair on your PILs to be responsible for all this childcare.

[PrimalLass]

Not yours, I mean BIL/SIL.

[thegreylady]

I do actually agree with you op but it must be very uncomfortable and frightening for your sil. MS is a pig of a disease, it takes away mobility, but more than that dignity. There will be incontinence issues and marital intimacy will be no pleasure. In the end, like all of us , they are on their own. If it were my dc I wouldn't be able to do enough to help but each to his/her own I suppose. They really should have sorted this out beforehand and perhaps your inlaws should have made sure of it knowing that bil/sil probably wouldn't.
It is a horrible situation for everyone.

[iamsoannoyed]

TBH thegreylady as they had been told about the plans for that week (and reminded at least once), and had not said anything to suggest there was/might be an issue, we all assumed they had things sorted. It isn't really anybody else's responsibility to sort out their childcare, so it wouldn't have entered our heads to question them as to whether they had done so or not.

I imagine if we had said "have you sorted care out for that week, as we won't be there to do it" or something similar, they would have taken offence- which I would have understood, as it is sort of suggesting they are incompetent to handle their own affairs (a suggestion of that sort is not one which anybody takes kindly to, even if it is wholly or partially true).

If it were my dc I wouldn't be able to do enough to help

Yes, I think PIL have done pretty much everything they can- as I said they paid and oversaw the building of BIL/SIL home when her mobility etc started to deteriorate. They do a lot of childcare- MIL does a lot of the school runs, both help with homework.

MIL also helps with housework and meals sometimes, and FIL does a fair bit of the lawn-mowing and gardening. We all help with running children to and from their friends/various activities fairly regularly. It is not unusual for us to have the children round for dinner when things are bad.

I think the thing is, PIL are pretty tired right now and need a break. We are all a bit fed up of BIL/SIL needs dominating our lives- happy to help, but they are becoming quite demanding and often give little notice, becoming stroppy if you can't do what they want.

Since the recent events over the farm, we have had to be a bit more firm regarding boundaries- i.e. if not an emergency, and not asked in good time, then I will not do certain things such as taking/picking a child up from somewhere. They will then huff, and ask PIL who will usually do it. However, recently PIL (FIL in particular) has been putting his foot down and saying no more often too, as their time and energy is being swallowed up by non-essential demands.

I think this is where some of the resentment has come in, and I admit sometimes I have been quite sharp with them when a simple "sorry I can't do that today" has resulted in a huff.

[RandomMess]

I'm not sure how you can get them to realise that the PILS will end up exhausted and unable to help if they carry on expecting/demanding so much of them. It's just a horrible situation all around and the time has come when they need to start paying for some childcare or PA help - doesn't even need to be full time just a few days of the week where you and PILs know your help won't be needed 90% of the year.

[clam]

"If it were my dc I wouldn't be able to do enough to help"

Greylady You're surely not implying that the OP's ILs aren't already doing enough? It sounds to me as if they've gone way above and beyond the call of duty and been happy to do so, but they're getting on a bit and need a break.

[AbbieHoffmansAfro]

This situation is a marathon not a sprint. PIL are clearly very helpful, and in it for the long haul. Which is precisely why they (and you) are going to need to be firm about boundaries and make sure they have rest and respite, like this holiday.

There are two carer situations in my family at the moment (due to cancer and dementia) and the strain is just enormous. We practically had to force one to take a holiday abroad while it was still possible, and boy was it a good decision. I don't know where that person would be now, a couple of crises later, without having had that time off.

I imagine BIL and SIL are shutting out this longer-term picture because they can't face it. We can all have a lot of sympathy for that, but its not realistic. I actually can really feel for both of them. BIL must be so knackered he's not thinking straight, SIL will be in the grip of all kinds of emotions and in pain to boot. You pretty much have to do the straight thinking for them it seems. Very sad.

[MidniteScribbler]

I think that they have become so used to having people be at their beck and call and do everything for them that they will have a very hard time getting out of the rut of expecting it to happen for them. I am a carer for an older person who lives with me, and I have to very consciously make her do things for herself. She is perfectly capable of doing it, she just became so used to it being done for her that she didn't see any other way. It's easy to fall in to the habit. They need to accept that while things may not be as simple for them as it may be for others, they still have to make some effort to help themselves. They may also find people more willing to help them out if they see them trying to do some things for themselves.

[MurtleTheTurtle]

I have nothing useful to add other than to add that my mother had a very progressive form of MS and it is a truly awful and cruel illness. The physical impact was terrible but much as I hate to remember it, she did also turn into a very self centred and occasionally manipulative woman - this wasn't in her nature at all and for a while her whole personality changed.

I look back now (5 years after her death) and I think that just getting through each day was so hard that she had no choice but to focus on daily survival and would have been horrified to look at her behaviour from the outside.

The impact on our family was awful and I think you are doing a great job remaining firm but sympathetic.

[RandomMess]

I have been thinking over this. They are actually asking the PILS for constant free childcare - completely unreasonable!

In one sense it doesn't matter why they want free childcare, like so many of us (for differing reasons) they need childcare & can afford it so why one earth do they feel entitled to get it for free??

I think it must be so destructive to their relationship with their DGC - after all when do they get to have "special" time with any of them when they are being run ragged doing the day to day drudgery that is a parent's duty.

[AbbieHoffmansAfro]

It doesn't appear to have occurred to the BIL and SIL that the children, including the youngest, might like a bit of a break too, at holiday club or PGL or something. They could have arranged something for the younger two this week that would actually have been a positive. The fact that they haven't just underscores that this is not really about practical difficulties at all.

[DeWee]

I think sometimes people do get into the habit of expecting that other people will want to rush round after them.

I can think of a couple of friends who had major and genuine crisis and everyone rushed round with everything from financial to practical help. What people were offering was no sustainable, but at the time was all everyone could do.
Fast forward a couple of years and those friends were very demanding that things were done for them, and very hurt that people weren't dropping everything to do it still. Before the crisis it wouldn't have occurred to them to accept if someone had offered, but it became important to them that people showed how much they cared by doing these things.
Of these friends, one realised, picked herself up and started doing things for herself, and is now very happy and through the crisis. The other still expects the moon on a balloon if she wants it. And if you fetched the moon this week will be complaining if you don't bring the sun next week, which makes it very difficult for anyone who is friends with her.

[JADS]

I am pleased that you and PIL are sticking to your guns. Your PIL sound like they desperately need a break. The level of help they are providing is not sustainable. Hopefully after a few more firm nos, your bil and sil will accept they need outside help.

You sound very caring, but also at the end of your tether. Enjoy your conference.

[MargaretRiver]

How busy is the DB, really?
He doesn't work outside the home

The older DCs will be pretty much self sufficient
And the DGPs plus OP and her DH seem to do an awful lot of the care for the younger DCs, plus housework / meals /gardening DIY

Obviously DSIL's Personal Care takes up quite a bit of time, but realistically, if they were paying for it, how many hours per day would they ask for?
Probably not the 10-12 or more that most working-age men put into their working day plus commute. And still go home and do a few hours of family & house stuff.

I think the DB has got into a feeling sorry for himself, 6 kids and a disabled wife rut, and like DeWee's friends above, has become very demanding

[Linguaphile]

YANBU. They sound totally self-absorbed and manipulative. :( My brother and SIL are a teensy bit like this (though not nearly to this extent) and it is utterly maddening.

It sounds like your PIL are wise to their manipulations and sick of them, though; I would imagine that, in their book, your SIL's little phone call stunt would be the last straw cementing her fate for a week without 'good' (aka free???) childcare.

Chin up, you are in the right here. Stick to your guns and let your children enjoy the week with their grandparents!

[iamsoannoyed]

an update for anyone who is interested-

PIL took DC away today, they were all happy and looking forward to their break. Got a call to say they'd arrived safely, so all going well on that front.

BIL/SIL still not happy, BIL says we have been "favoured once again" and is still being off with DH. They had an argument yesterday- though I think this is more about the farm than PIL taking our DC away.

However, their upset has not stopped them asking if I'll take on of their DDs to a riding lesson next week as SIL has an appointment which would make timing "tight". Oh well....

[RandomMess]

How bloody irritating, PIL couldn't go away as there was non-one else to help when you can anyway - arghhhhhhhhhhhh

[waithorse]

I remember your last thread. YANBU. Really feel for your PIL. Hope things work out.