inheritance issue

[Firsttimer7259]

This is a v old issue I thought I'd put aside but another inheritance thread got me thinking.
My M died in 2002. After her death my f and my 2 sisters and I spent some months deciding what to do w her mother's house that my m had inherited. It was rented out but in another country. We decided to sell it and split proceeds between the 3 siblings. Once house was sold my f announced he was going to keep the money and reinvest it rather than us having it. This caused almighty ruckus.
A long while later my dad gave me a copy of my mum's will. It says he was to inherit her assets, it also said she wanted to be buried on s plot of land my parents owned w my f. At that point I thought my sis and I got wrong end of stick and she hadn't wanted/meant to leave me and my sisters her mother's house as we had thought.
Thing is the will he showed me was dated 1985 - we were all under 18 then. We were mid to late 20s when she died in 2002. Her death was not unexpected shed had cancer for well over a decade - she often talked about wanting to be cremated ( which she was) and about wanted her ashes scattered) she hated the thought of being buried. She was cremated but her ashes remain in fathers house.
I've often wondered why my mother didn't mmake out parts of her assets directly to her children and feel sad because we have nothing from her - she was a big collector of jewellery and antiques - my sister's and I have none of her things. My f is intractable and had new gf who I guess will keep my mother's silverware etc. It makes me sad because she loved these and some were her mothers. I loved my grab very much. But I've been telling myself for years it's just stuff and if she wanted us to have them she would have made arrangements and to think otherwise just leads to craziness

But: what if that wasn't her final will? My mother was constantly on about making arrangements for her death would she really not have updated it from 1985 to 2002? Also wouldn't she have changed the cremation bit? I know her lawyer - should I call him? Is that nuts? I don't want to scratch at something that's just going to make me sore
Please don't go on about me being grasping etc. Sure the money would have solved things that are hard financially but I do see thats how it goes. But I can't shake the sense that maybe thus wasn't her final will

Sounds like your DM may have made another will at some point.

I guess now you have thought of that you should really look into it.

I understand that family items not reaching you would be upsetting.

Yes, look into it.

How you do this I am not sure. You could start with her lawyer as you suggested.

Of course your DM does not have to leave a penny to her offspring if she chooses that.

It seems you are suspicious of your father and this will? You would usually have a solicitor to disclose that information. Your DF has a solicitor? Family members will not have a copy independenly without legal records being kept.

It's a dead-end battle though, going over who you think should have got what in who's will. My father inhereted the family business (nothing else) while his brother got the massive house (mansion) jewllery and savings. Needless to say the family business was a wreck, and my Dad was left fairly screwed. Absolutely nothing you can do!

I don't get on well w my father. Lawyer is a family friend. He disapproves of me I think cos f and I don't get on. I'm scared to call and worried I'd just look money obsessed.

I don't get on well w my father. Lawyer is a family friend. He disapproves of me I think cos f and I don't get on. I'm scared to call and worried I'd just look money obsessed.

Hopefully someone will along in a moment with advice about how to see a copy of a will.

You can only see a copy of a will after probate. OP thinks there may have been a later will. She would need evidence, not suspicions.

If you think there might be another will after the 1985 one you could apply to the Probate Registry for a copy of the grant of probate. I think it costs £10 for a general search if you know the date of death, which presumably you do, and you will be sent a copy of it if it exists. This link explains how to apply for it.

Yes you could contact her lawyer. You will need a copy of her death certificate but bear in mind that if you are not named as an executor then they do not have to release a copy to you.

If your father obtained a grant of probate then you can get a copy of the grant and the will ( either the 1985 one or later, whichever was proved) from the Probate Registry. Cost £10. Complete form PA1S. hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/pa001s-eng.pdf

What about the overseas property? Was there foreign will ? In some countries eg France, Spain, Portugal there are forced heirship laws which mean that the children have to inherit a certain proportion of their parent's estate regardless of any will.

Who was receiving the rental income when the property was let ( and paying tax on it) ? Who paid the CGT when the property was sold ?

Lots of unanswered questions.

Of course bear in mind that if you do find a later will and your father has proved the 1985 one then you are potentially opening a massive can of worms and you will need legal advice. He may genuinely not have known about the later will of course but just beware as he could be prosecuted for fraud.

Finally you raise the point about why your mum made no provision for you and your sisters regarding family heirlooms etc. Assuming that this is the case then I have to say as a probate lawyer I am not surprised. Most spouses trust their other halves to do the right thing and feel there is no need to make specific provision for their children. I come across your situation time and again. When my own mother died ( without a will) my father gave me and my sister her jewellery but when I asked about some books ( just old cookery books which were of sentimental value, some of which had been her mother's) he had already thrown them in a skip ! He couldn't understand why I was so upset and just told me "they weren't worth anything", as though I was going to put them on Ebay !

Anyway, I feel for you OP and hope you can get matters sorted. PM me if you get anywhere with the will and would like more tailored advice.

Unless there's reason to think that she was unhappy with her 1985 will, why would there be another?

If it puts your mind at rest then contact her lawyer. However you do know that your father would automatically inherite everything unless she specifically stated otherwise. She probably never got round to making another will. You will inherite when your father dies.

I guess 2 things make me wonder - the burial thing - I have at least a decade of memories of her going on about wanting to be cremated and also about a very partic type of cremation - outside with an open pyre. We cremated her in exactly that way - which would be against the will my F showed me. But we all know this was what she wanted - shed told us often enough and my sisters and I didnt know about the will at that time.

My parents live in another country that has lots of ethnic/religious groups so a lot of the law on family matters and inheritance v complex as it depends whihc group you belong to.

diddl I think you might make a different will when your children are adults than when they are minors. My mother was diagnosed with cancer when I was 13, she spent a lot of time talking about how to make sure we were looked after when she had gone.

My parents were v wealthy and my mother set a lot of store at sorting out her assets. I guess it surprised me she didnt update her will but I've spent the last decade thinking this is what she wanted so I have to accept that. I wont lie it has been very hard. My sister was v ill and had a baby shortly after the big fall out over the house. They were really scraping by for a while (no benefits or state support where they live) My other sis and I did what we could to help out financially but F didnt for years - we kept asking him but he wanted my sis to recognise he was entitled to the money from my grans house which she wouldnt. I found that incredibly upsetting and kept thinking how scandalised my M would be if she knew how my sis and her child were living.

Oh God help me - I decided to really force myself to read the legal docs my f gave me. There's a bunch in German which I find hard to read. Turns out he lied to German authorities saying my Mums will stipulates that money he inherits from her eventually to be split between the children. German law requires children to be given 50% in equal shares. This allowed f to claim all of grans house. From websites children need to challenge within 3 years of death. So he did us out of about 250000.

I'm not sure I want to look into this any further - with all the diff countries it could be more complex and even if I'm right it'd be too late. Feel stupid for not looking into it at the time but I was so upset by it all and the spare cash I had I thought was better spent supporting my sis than on lawyers. Plus I couldn't imagine suing my own father. I also think if this is the will my mother made - and looks like it is tbh - I'm not sure I want to invoke German legal technicalities to get round it - even tho I can't imagine the current situation could possibly be what she thought would happen.

I wish I hadn't read this stuff now - we do fine without and I know he's a bastard without all this nonsense. I wish my mum was here

I don't have any practical/legal advice really but it must be very frustrating for your OP
Are you in Germany? Is your lawyer/friend of the family in Germany and familiar with the law there?
I hope you can find a solution.

My husband and I have mirror wills. He will get everything when I die and I will get everything when he dies. Our children will only get what is left when we have both gone. This is normal and pretty much how most people do it I think. If we left anything to our children before that, the surviving spouse wouldn't be able to make ends meet.

Sounds like your DM may have made another will at some point.

Why do you think this GoEasy? I couldn't see anything in the post to suggest that.

What does "eventually" mean?

Surely if the money was invested, you & your sisters can challenge him at any point for your share?

Did he pay someone?

i mean I think that it's pretty clear in Germany that things are split between the spouse & kids, so whoever handled the estate...

"German law requires children to be given 50% in equal shares."

I think that this is only if there is no will.

Fire
I don't know how old you are? But have you thought about if you die first and you dh remarries? And leaves it to his wife what about your DC then Have you put this in your will
Or are you not bothered, as you won't be here.

I think you're right diddl. I did read that spouses and children are guaranteed a minimum amount, but couldn't find any explanation of how that works. I suspect because it's very complicated.

Unless there's reason to think that she was unhappy with her 1985 will, why would there be another?

For reasons already stated , long term illness, and so on.

I've trusted my husband through 30 years of marriage and I'm guite happy to trust him in death too. I think it's highly likely that we will have spent most of it before then and I don't think children can live in expectation of a large inheritance.

hello OP .i understand this still hurts .to think your mothers last wishes were not carried out if this is the case .but i will tell you from experience nothing will fill the heartache of your mother dying .my mum died left me her money and house .as long as i let stepfather live there until his death . but if he wanted to go i was to sell the house and split proceeds .i duly remortgaged our home to pay hers .then three months later he asked me to sell .so it cost money time and heartache. it was the loss of my family home that caused me the heartache.i would let go i gave the money not a fortune to the children bought each a small car .and had a few hundred left .not because i am rich god anything but .but no amount of money will bring back my wonderfull mother .or yours i would let the bitterness go

I think that the idea is that you can't disinherit your kids.

But imagine if your spouse dies, you want to sell the house & you have to give 50% to the kids?

I mean that might not be workable!
(And why should you??)

But obviously when the last parent dies the kids get everything equally between them.

Although it must be possible to make bequests.

I found that incredibly upsetting and kept thinking how scandalised my M would be if she knew how my sis and her child were living

This is why people need to talk talk talk about their wills!!!! and do them and tell everyone usually as long as no issues whats going on with them.

Your opening up painful raw wounds again, but at least you finally know.

This comes up time and time again on forums. Very often there is an old will or even no will, the person talks about how they will leave their money and possessions and when it comes to it, they have done nothing. Either no will or they didn't get around to changing the old one. Some people just aren't great at admin or overestimate how long they have to sort it out.

The mirror will thing makes me wonder after my experience. My mother died relatively young. My f has his own new things going on which means hes not really interested in his children from the marriage with my mother. A lot of this wealth comes from my mother and her family - it will probably end up with my fathers girlfriend and her son. Its ok, they can keep it but was that what my mother foresaw in the mirror will she made w my dad? I doubt it.

Im not trying to restrict my dads spending or comfort. Im not really bitter about his swindles anymore either - he was always like that I wish my mother had been a bit more aware of it but she loved him I guess. Its more about the sentimental stuff - I wish I had something of my mothers - its not even the expensive jewellery that Id love to share with my sisters, more the costume jewellry she wore a lot. I know it will make me cry and rage if my F's gf wears it or sells it because it will have none of those associations for her. My M was an amazing vibrant woman, its only 12 years ago that she passed and my memories of her are fading. I have a few snapshots of her and thats it. Everything else is w my dad and he just seems to sit on it. I dont know if its sentimental for him or to spite us that he wont give any of it away. Its bloody painful tho.