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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not be comfortable with this at all?

66 replies

Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 20:29

We've been trying for two years for a baby. Dh had sperm tests which showed high count but low motility and very low morphology (between 1 and 3%).
We've had two rounds of icsi ivf and both times the embryos have stopped developing on day 3. We've made it to transfer but the embryos I didn't have transferred dont make it much further so I conclude the ones I had put back don't either.

This apparently can be down to problems with the sperm and the clinic said that even the sperm selected for icsi have 'odd' features.

Dh now wants to try with donor sperm but only on the condition we never tell anyone, ever. Including any potential child.
I don't agree with this but dh won't even discuss it. He just says 'well we won't do it then and won't have a baby' he won't discuss it rationally at all.
I think it's wrong to not tell the theoretical child about where they can't from. I realise we probably won't even get that far (iui with donor sperm only has about 15% chance) but if we did...I'm not sure that's a 'secret' id want to keep.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 21:01

We are paying but out of interest how does tracing the donor work if the sperm is from Europe? Do the same files stand?

OP posts:
Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 21:01

Rules stand.

OP posts:
Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 21:02

I'm so torn.
It feels wrong but I want a baby so badly.

Maybe we should go for the counselling and see where we stand then?

OP posts:
Itsfab · 02/08/2014 21:09

Genetics are important. It really annoys me when people say daddy brings you up, sperm is just sperm. It isn't. Who you are biologically is very important for many reasons. If you can't see that then I think you are a bit daft tbh.

YANBU, you are being sensible and realistic.

My father was shit but it meant a lot that I knew who he was. Far too many kids are being brought up with Fred as their father when it is actually Johnny.

EthicalPickle · 02/08/2014 21:17

What a difficult situation. How long has the possibility of using doner sperm been discussed? Maybe your DH just needs some time to come to terms with it.

I would certainly want the child to be aware of the truth from an early age, however I can understand your DHs point of view even if I don't agree with him.

andsmile · 02/08/2014 21:19

if your DH is pushing to use a donor it sounds as though he sees this as a good solution (I say that as men can be quite solution focussed) but he just hasnt been able to think through the emotions attached to this fertility option. Instead he is being absolute and 'shutting it off' by not being able to talk about. This maybe because he can't as he hasnt processed it himself yet.

I dont see how you could go forward with out an agreement on some thing so fundamental as a persons genetic origins.

Counselling maybe an optio but I would take a lot of care in chosing an experienced counsellor for this. They may assist in a dialogue.

naty1 · 02/08/2014 21:23

Well a lot depends on how many you didnt transfer tgat arrested on day 3?
If its only 2 that is a very small sample to draw conclusion from.
As not all embies get to day 5 , something like 50% probably less. My dsis had 2 left 1st icsi and had 1 baby. They changed protocol -> different trigger to pregnyl and got 4 left , 2 frozen 2 implanted 1 baby. It could be luck but could be the change.

We had very few sperm ... Less than half mil. But still had a DD via icsi (1 of 2 embies left) 2nd icsi has failed though.

Were fertilisation rates also low?

Dont forget they put back the best so if the others dont make it to day 5 that may not mean the ones out back didnt.

(I almost wish they would wait on all till day 5, it kind of feels like a con as if you put them back you dont know they arent making it so worry you arent implanting etc, you cant see maybe they arent hatching. But it is i guess distressing if you have nothing to put back) though i daresay if i did several and never got past day 3 i would find it easier to stop than if i just thought- oh its just luck its not implanting.

Could you try imsi to select the best sperm.

I dont know what we would have done about telling a child about using a donor. Though i imagine it will be pretty common in this generation (also a % of kids arent the DH child anyway)

NutcrackerFairy · 02/08/2014 21:26

You can find a specialist fertility counsellor via www.bica.net/

You may also find that your fertility clinic has a fertility counsellor available to see patients and they would be experienced in working with issues around donor conception.

Best of luck XX

FloozeyLoozey · 02/08/2014 21:34

Kids should always know the truth. We don't have contact with ds's dad, and as upsetting as it is, he knows all the gory details, age appropriately. He's 8 now but knew the truth as soon as he was old enough to ask. I will always be honest.

hettie · 02/08/2014 21:35

Mme as already pointed out any low level biology class may cover the heritability of eye colour and then the child will work it out for themselves...

Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 21:48

Both rounds gave us 9 eggs.
First round all fertilised, by day 3 they'd slowed down and we had 2 six cells put back. Ideally they should be at least 7 cells by day 3.
Second round 6 fertilised, they did a bit better and we had a 6 and 7 put back and the rest were at 4 and 5 but hadn't arrested. They divided quite a lot but didnt compact so didnt become blastocysts.

They just aren't great quality.
It could be the eggs I guess. Or both sperm and egg.
It's just they said about the sperm having weird head features and I've done research which suggests even with icsi sperm with low morphology can be a problem.

OP posts:
TeenAndTween · 02/08/2014 21:52

If you do go ahead, you should tell the child before he/she is 5.
In my opinion they need to be brought up 'knowing' so it isn't a surprise. You can start this from age 2 with some kind of story.

My DD2 is adopted and we were telling her her story from age 2, 5 would have been far too late.

Cranfieldmc · 02/08/2014 22:01

Yanbu.

I have 3 donor conceived children (by donor sperm). We have told them their origins literally from birth (have made use of some of the excellent material from the donor conception network). Please look into this group as they have loads of advice for people about to embark on this process. If you have fertility treatment in the UK with donor sperm you will be required to have "implications" counselling with a trained fertility counsellor although personally I am not sure that a one hour session before you are even pregnant can begin to really prepare you for the challenges of providing appropriate information to a donor-conceived child and trying to get it right. Your gut instinct is right here, if you go ahead you will be bringing up a child who is the main (really only) person who is impacted by your decision. I cannot imagine hiding something so important from my children and your DH's feelings, whilst understandable, pale into insignificance compared to your responsibility to any children conceived.

roastednut · 02/08/2014 22:05

My dh has very similar issues to yours, and we've also had 2 unsuccessful icsi's. I was also wondering whether the state of the sperm was causing the embryos not to develop. On our last review consultation I pretty much asked the question and was told that once the fertilisation has taken place, the sperm has done it's job, the DNA is there and it's pretty much all about the egg quality as to the further development of the embryo.

I'm not at all saying this could be the same for you (and my eggs are pretty old) but this info really surprised me (and fwiw came from a very experienced consultant).

It's a totally shit situation, I'm coming to terms with the fact that it's highly unlikely we will have kids now as I'm not sure I want to go thru it again as our success rate is 10 %. I would ask lots of questions of your consultant if you get chance.
Wishing you tons of luck Smile

roastednut · 02/08/2014 22:09

Sorry didn't actually answer the question at all. Yanbu about this. But before you go anywhere near the route of donor sperm get some advice from an expert as according to our clinic the sperm, other than fertilisation and DNA, actually plays a very small part in the ongoing embryo development.

Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 22:09

It was my understanding that day 3 is when sperm quality kicks in but I could be wrong.

We did try ivf with some of the eggs and they did fertilise but they developed much more slowly and they said that selecting the best sperm with icsi was the way forwards.

I actually thought it could be a problem with either. It's only because we have a known issue with the sperm and I am only 31 that has made us lean towards the sperm being the likely issue.

OP posts:
Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 22:10

Or of course it could be both.
What a delightful predicament.

OP posts:
roastednut · 02/08/2014 22:12

The sperm will be the issue as to why you're not conceiving naturally I guess, same as us (been over 4 years now ttc) but not sure how important it is post-fertilisation. Hopefully someone with more info will advise further.

Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 22:13

Stuff like this I've read:

haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/case-study-poor-quality-eggsembryos-in-2

Although our embryos don't fragment. They're just slow. So who knows? No one and that's part of the problem!

OP posts:
Jelliebabe2 · 02/08/2014 22:15

I think you should do it then you (fingers crossed) have a baby and years to convince each other who is right. I'm on the list for donor eggs. I'm not sure about telling either.

Original poster
Sleepswithbutterflies · 02/08/2014 22:20

Roastednut if we try again it will be at a different clinic because we haven't been massively thrilled with the one we are at.

I wish lots of luck to you too whatever you decide.

OP posts:
roastednut · 02/08/2014 22:21

At 31 it's unlikely to be your eggs but your clinic would know this based on your test results etc. Yep a truly delightful predicament and exactly where I am (but add 10 years on to your age). Lovely.

roastednut · 02/08/2014 22:22

Thanks Smile yes I think you should change clinic as it's so hard when you're not getting the info you need x

Cranfieldmc · 02/08/2014 22:32

Sleeps, just realised who you are. Does this mean your recent IVF didn't work. Really sorry to hear that, was routing for you. Best for you both to take some time and mull it over, get a second opinion from a better clinic. If you do still think you'd like to try with donor (eggs or sperm), read up as much as you can about it, take months if possible to discuss, consider all the what ifs and how you would handle the topic with any children. Although for me and my DH the donor route it has worked out brilliantly I am definitely of the opinion that it should not be entered into lightly as if it's just another fertility treatment ( as most clinics try to sell it).

ShergarAndSpies · 02/08/2014 22:38

I think it's important to keep in mind that our children are almost certain to have much greater access to their genetic information than we can even imagine at present.

We will almost certainly be screening for a host of diseases, DNA is likely to be used more and more in identity proof, insurers are likely to use genetic info more and more when agreeing life / health policies.

It is almost a certainty that your child would discover their true genetic heritage, regardless of any decision to tell / not tell them.

I think your DH is behaving irrationally through fear / shock / guilt / shame / anger.

It might make sense to take some time to unpack his emotional response before discussing this further.

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