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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder wtf?

80 replies

kappadelta · 01/08/2014 18:05

DH is in redundancy consultation. Everyone 'at risk' has to apply for new more senior roles.

18 months ago directly after returning to work after paternity leave DH was put on a 6 month appraisal.

After the 6 months he was offered the option to step down or be fired.He chose to step down and took a huge pay cut but seemed happier.

The Manager who orchestrated all this then destroyed all paperwork relating to the 6 month appraisal.

DH does not want to stay in the company. I've spoken to Acas and his union who state that he could have used the appraisal to support his inability to do this quite senior role and secure redundancy.

As there is no paper trail he can't actually do this and he's only just told me now.

So WTF is it just DH or do all men behave this way?

OP posts:
notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 15:51

Am I missing something? if he was happier in the more junior role, it doesn't exist and he's not capable of the more senior one then the only other alternative is redundancy?

Again, sorry if I'm missing something but why are you talking to acas? do you feel he has been discriminated against? process flawed? If he doesn't like the company then take the money and run?

Bad form for 'losing'/destroying/misplacing the documents. Was it a PIP and was he given formal invite letters to outcome meetings?

i'm an employment lawyer so maybe i can help.

PS. My hubby used to be a plodder when i met him and had one of those careers where he pretty much earned more than i ever will the year after he graduated (dentistry).

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 15:52

So i know how frustrating it can be!

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 17:51

Notkate - they aren't letting anyone just take redundancy. They have to apply for the positions.

DH is concerned that he will be made to accept one of these positions.

He does also feel discriminated against. The whole reason he was made to step down was because he refused to work more than 2 hours over his contracted hours. Bearing in mind there were weeks he worked 15 hours over for no extra money.

Also he was put on the 6 months performance review the day after returning from his 4 week paternity leave.

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notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:01

And what have the company said will happen if he doesn't apply for the role? If he doesn't apply for it and his more junior role doesn't exist anymore I can't see how they can't make him redundant.

What does the not wanting to work over his contractual hours in his existing role have to do with this comsultatiom/risk of redundancy? That he won't be able to do the new role? How are they treating him any differently because of this?

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:05

Is your concern that he will be forced into a role he can't do and then will be managed out due to poor performance? Therefore having no redundancy pay and just notice pay?

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 18:10

Kate - it was his last post where he didn't want to work over his contracted hours.

This will be demanded again if he was to get this new position within the company.

If he doesn't apply for the new position he will have resigned? I think? Then no redundancy pay?

If he does and isn't up to it and gets dismissed then again no redundancy pay?

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Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 18:11

Kate - thanks for your help Grin

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notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:29

No worries- first time i have been thanked on here for free advice lol!

If he is offered an alternative role, the ERA 1998 specifies that he is entitled to a 4 week trial period and provided he says that he is not up to the job within that 4 weeks and makes it very clear to his employer then he won't forfeit his right to redundancy pay. However if he tried to wing it after 4 weeks then yes, he will likely be dismissed under capability after a series of warnings and the payment due to him is likely to be just notice pay as it would be a regular contractual dismissal.

So my recommendation is that he puts it in writing that he is concerned that he is not capable of doing the job above him and see what they say. You should include that the PIP he was on (and if you have any documentation to include it). he should send it to the HRM now or bring it up at the next consultation meeting.

Unfortunately he will need to do this himself as its really unlikely that the employer will discuss with you (sorry, if i was advising them i would tell them to tell you to go away!). They might do though stranger things have happened.

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:31

PS. I would keep your discrimination 'thoughts' under your hat for now and just see how they respond to his letter.

however that said, its not discrimination to try and get someone to work above their contractual hours. its just a contractual breach unless you can prove he was targeted in some way/put at a detriment directly/indirectly because of a protected characteristic (e.g.: sexual orientation, gender, religion and belief etc etc etc).

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:34

No if he doesn't apply then he hasn't resigned, because the offer of alternative employment needs to be comparative to his existing role and you have already said it is graded differently? plus they would have to prove that he was being unreasonable...in which case i suggest if they do say 'tough you are applying for it' then he needs to try it for a week and then use the trial period rule.

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 18:37

Kate - regarding the trial period. In correspondence it states they may allow a 4 week trial period to successful employees in the new positions.

I thought, as you have confirmed that this is a right rather than at the employers discretion?

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notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:42

yeah its a right, let me find you a 'non lawyers' link (i.e: not the statute itself)

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:43

www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/suitable-alternative-employment

"...Trial periods
You have the right to a 4 week trial period for any alternative employment you’re offered.

The 4 week period could be extended if you need training. Any extension must be agreed in writing before the trial period starts.

Tell your employer during the trial period if you decide the new job isn’t suitable. This won’t affect your employment rights, including your right to statutory redundancy pay...."

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 18:47

Kate - he also felt discriminated against because he was a parent and needed to leave on time to pick up children or get home so I could leave for work.

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notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:50

Unfortunately parenting itself isn't a protected characteristic under the equality act.

As i said, i don't think you will need to use it but keep it under your hat as you don't want all your cards on the table at once.

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 18:52

It will just be a contractual breach sorry!

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 18:53

Kate - Even parenting a registered disabled child?

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GeneHuntsMistress · 02/08/2014 18:55

Not read whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating everything - but if he wants to leave he could request a "protected conversation" and discuss the possibility of a Settlement Agreement. Sounds like they would want that anyway - they don't have to jump through employment and redundancy hoops, and he gets a few months salary (whatever is negotiated anyway) and a good reference and everyone leaves on good terms.

He needs to get his finger out of his arse and find a job tout suite.

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 19:01

Kate & Gene - I'm just pulling his last update out of my files to have a look at the exact wording

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notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 19:05

I don't think you've mentioned that before.

That could be discrimination by association on the basis of disability. When have they done this?

GarlicAugustus · 02/08/2014 19:14

Hang on, does he/you think he'll be awarded a senior position, then trapped into messing it up & getting fired? My last employer tried that with me and I headed it off with advice from the union & a solicitor (I used the free service that comes with credit cards, etc.) They did get rid of me in the end - it was inevitable - but under more realistic circumstances.

I'm not understanding why you think this is all down to your husband's behaviour Confused As far as I can see from the picture you've painted, he's a slightly lazy & unassertive character who's been manipulated. Nothing wrong with being a quiet guy; presumably he wasn't Captain Dynamo when you married?

There's a lot wrong with being manipulated at work and it is very undermining. I totally lost the confidence to get better jobs, despite being a lot more upfront & proactive than DH sounds. This manager who's gunning for DH, is he younger? What's the average age in his team or department, and is H older than that?

GarlicAugustus · 02/08/2014 19:16

YYY, keep posting. He could well have a discrimination case on at least two counts.

notkatemiddleton · 02/08/2014 19:19

It's rare that an employer will have a without prejudice conversation and offer up either a settlement unless you've exhausted internal procedures and you can prove to them they've done something wrong. I would certainly advise a client to ignore a request at this stage

To be honest, in terms of the redundancy process, they haven't done anything yet until they give him notice?

Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 19:21

Right so I've looked at the paper work and it states that there is no legal requirement to offer voluntary redundancy.

The company state that the new positions need to be filled with at risk employees. The company does not want to be in a position where they have lost key skills and talent and are now unable to fill all the new positions.

So they think that's it's right that all employees go through the application for the new positions.

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Original poster
kappadelta · 02/08/2014 19:24

Kate - DH was literally screamed at in the middle if work when he needed to leave on time to pick up our disabled son.

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