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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not see why people are so annoyed...?

365 replies

curiousgeorgie · 29/07/2014 23:31

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709730/Richard-Dawkins-sparks-outrage-Twitter-debate-saying-date-rape-bad-stranger-rape-worse.html

Sorry for the daily mail link, I know some don't like that.

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

OP posts:
chockbic · 30/07/2014 11:58

prettybird, that is shocking but perhaps to be expected by these rape apologists.

MostWicked · 30/07/2014 12:01

I think there are differences but trying to quantify which is worse, implies that one is better, and that is where the argument causes such outrage.

However, the law would (rightly I think), treat the rapist differently according to the circumstances, in the same way as they would treat a murderer differently according to the circumstances.

A young girl, gang raped at knifepoint on her way home from school, has suffered in a different way to a woman who has gone to bed with a man, but changes her mind and refuses sex, but he rapes her. Both are rapes, but they would be treated differently by the courts and would have a different effect on the victim. Different does not mean that one is ok, both are horrific, but (at the risk of being flamed) I know which one would horrify me more.

fluffyraggies · 30/07/2014 12:01

WTF is the point of this anyway?? Confused

Is he vocalising some random thoughts he had on a bored drive one day? He's an 'accademic', so he thinks we should take his shite seriously?

When he's been raped by a stranger and raped by someone he knows he will have license to air an opinion on which was worse. For him. Until then - no, this is poisonous crap.

prettybird · 30/07/2014 12:07

Lallans Peat Warrior does point out that at least a trial judge saw that the existence of a previous relationship was "one of trust and hence an aggravating feature of the crime." - but the Appeal Court overturned that, seeing it instead as a mitigating factor AngrySad

...and yet, there has been barely any coverage of this Shock

StillStayingClassySanDiego · 30/07/2014 12:09

*He's posted this on his blog in response to the criticism:

I wasn’t even saying it is RIGHT to rank one kind of rape as worse than another (that caused an immense amount of agony and a scarcely creditable level of vitriolic abuse in the Twittosphere). You may be one of those who thinks all forms of rape are EQUALLY bad, and should not, in principle be ranked at all, ever. In that case my logical point won’t be relevant to you and you don’t need to take offence (although you might have trouble being a judge who is expected to give heavier sentences for worse versions of the same crime). All I was saying is that IF you are one of those who is prepared to say that one kind of rape is worse than another (whichever particular kinds those might be), this doesn’t imply that you approve of the less bad one. It is still bad. Just not AS bad.

I was only talking logic, with no desire to make light of the seriousness of any kind of rape or any kind of pedophilia. And the hypothetical comparisons that illustrated my logical point could, in all cases, be reversed without in any way changing the validity of the logic.

What a pile of steaming shite!

chockbic · 30/07/2014 12:10

I think his opinion is more insidious than even grading degrees of rape.

It reads to me as there there, dear, its not so bad. After all, mild paedophilia isn't so bad, is it?

The subtext leaks through his words.

Andro · 30/07/2014 12:16

Mild paedophilia versus serious paedophilia - to some extent the 'difference' is recognised in court, certainly in respect of possession of images (there are 5 classes of images iirc). There is no acceptable defence for any of it, but the severity of each class of image as defined by law dictates the punishment.

I can only hope that Dawkins had made the (inaccurate) assumption that date rape is always less physically damaging than stranger rape and based his logic on that, it almost sounds as though he's done something like take an excerpt of a book* where rapists were split into 4 or 5 types based on their behaviours and misunderstood what was said.

*The book I'm referring to was written by John Douglas, throughout it he is clear that the only person responsible for the actions of the offender is the offender.

chockbic · 30/07/2014 12:20

He says that he can't condemn mild paedophilia.

Why not?

ephemeralfairy · 30/07/2014 12:26

I understand the logical point he's making. Saying that X is not as bad as Y does not imply that you approve of or endorse X. That is very basic A-level Philosophy and is so obvious a point that it doesn't even need to be made.

It is the examples used that have caused anger. Why use rape as an example? Why?? He is saying that date rape is not as 'bad' as rape by a stranger. That is a vile, ignorant and misogynistic thing to say. And as a point of argument about logical fallacy it falls flat. You can't really apply such cold hard logic to subjective human experience.

But that gets away from the main point. 'Ranking' rape is a form of rape apologism, a way of making excuses for rapists, a way of saying 'oh but she went on a date with him/wore a short skirt/kissed him in the taxi, she must have secretly wanted him to forcibly stick his dick in her, even though she said no'.

Callani · 30/07/2014 12:35

I narrowly avoided being raped by a co-worker a few years ago thanks to a very diligent off-duty policeman who noticed him following me through the train station and decided to check I was ok when I didn't return from the toilets.

I'd actually quite fancied my co-worker before then and had flirted with him a little bit nervously that night over after work drinks so perhaps he was expecting me to go along with the "surprise" of him pinning me against a wall in a public place and rubbing up against me. Of course he wasn't pleased when I didn't want to jump his bones then and there and he'd given me a serious concussion as well as tearing my skirt before the policeman intervened.

So was the fact that I liked this bloke any better than a random stranger doing it? Not for me. Because I stopped liking him the second he didn't back off apologetically when I didn't go along with it, I started fearing him when it became apparent that me saying "no" didn't mean anything to him, and at that moment it was clear to me that this man who I thought I knew was actually a stranger to me.

Thankfully the police were really good to me, so at least I didn't have my faith in the system destroyed but I've lost all faith in my own judgement now, I avoid works drinks outside of summer hours and I have awful flashes where I look at men I know and trust and wonder whether they could turn on me just like that guy did.

MagicMojito · 30/07/2014 13:00

Angry Angry Angry

Which would you prefer OP?

Rape is rape ffs.

MostWicked · 30/07/2014 13:39

'Ranking' rape is a form of rape apologism, a way of making excuses for rapists, a way of saying 'oh but she went on a date with him/wore a short skirt/kissed him in the taxi, she must have secretly wanted him to forcibly stick his dick in her, even though she said no'.

I don't see the logic in that at all.
How does ranking rape, place any blame on the victim? All it does is acknowledge that within all offences, there are different degrees.
All rape victims are victims. None are in any way responsible for their rape.

It's the same with sexual assault or paedophilia. There are varying degrees, which are all recognised within the court system.
If a man grabs the boobs (over clothes) of a woman on the bus, that is sexual assault. Would anyone seriously argue that that is the same as a three hour ordeal at knifepoint, where the woman was stripped, assaulted and forced to perform acts on a man, but not raped? One is clearly more serious than the other.

Images of child abuse have 5 clearly defined levels of seriousness. That doesn't mean that level 1 is ok, or was partly the responsibility of the child, it just acknowledges that all offences are hideous, but some are more hideous than others.

And I don't think someone has to be a victim or a woman, to form an opinion on the subject. I am not a victim of child abuse but I feel able to form a valid opinion. Law makers, enforcers and juries are not all victims of the crimes they are assessing.

Someone very close to me was abused by a teacher. It is very obvious that as this paedophile perfected his technique and the degree of abuse became more and more serious over the years, the lasting effect on the victims was much worse for his later victims. So out of all of his victims, some suffered more serious assaults than others. By definition, that means that some were milder.

Anarchy99 · 30/07/2014 13:53

OP - I was raped when I was 15 years old by a "friend" - I had been a virgin until then.

Should I have been relieved that at least I knew him?

chockbic · 30/07/2014 14:01

I don't really see why he needs to point this out, except to try and demonstrate how one is worse than the other.

People know about sentencing plus aggravating or mitigating circumstances.

It is as individual as the victim themself. You cannot say that one person has suffered mild trauma, therefore, they won't be as affected as someone who suffered a more serious assault.

Seems as if he merely wants to stir up controversy, whilst also calling people hard of thinking.

ephemeralfairy · 30/07/2014 14:09

If a man grabs the boobs (over clothes) of a woman on the bus, that is sexual assault. Would anyone seriously argue that that is the same as a three hour ordeal at knifepoint, where the woman was stripped, assaulted and forced to perform acts on a man, but not raped? One is clearly more serious than the other.

But we're not talking about sexual assault. The example Dawkins used was 'date rape' versus 'stranger rape'. Rape is rape is rape. Rape as I understand the term is forcing another person to have sex against their will. Why would it be worse for a stranger to do that to you than for someone you know to do that to you?

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 14:10

chockbic

Great summary

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 30/07/2014 14:20

Someone earlier in the thread turned it round and asked if being raped by someone you know is nicer than being raped by a stranger - and that, to me, explains perfectly why Richard Dawkins was so wrong to say what he did, because if you are saying one sort of rape is 'worse' than another, you are clearly implying that some rapes are 'nicer' - and anyone who says or thinks that any rape is nicer is an idiot with no empathy or heart.

chockbic · 30/07/2014 14:21

NewtRipley thank you :)

MostWicked · 30/07/2014 14:27

ephemeralfairy I was making the point in reaction to the notion that ranking rape is rape apologism and blames the victims. I was using the sexual assault example to explain that sexual crimes do have different degrees.
I think Dawkins' examples and language were extremely poor. "Mild" is completely the wrong word. There is rape and there is more serious violent rape, but there is no mild rape. And just isolating the stranger issue, is complete nonsense. Whether or not you know the rapist, is irrelevant. In some cases, knowing the rapist makes it worse due to the breach of trust.

MostWicked · 30/07/2014 14:30

if you are saying one sort of rape is 'worse' than another, you are clearly implying that some rapes are 'nicer'

That is just rubbish. All rapes are horrific crimes, but some are more horrific than others. That does NOT mean that some are nicer.

PlusCaChanges · 30/07/2014 14:38

I have nc'd for this because I am still, I don't know, ashamed?, embarrassed? about what happened to me.

I was sexually assaulted by someone I knew 20 years ago. I had met up with him and been out for a drink, as he had offered to lend me some money (I was a stuggling single parent and I honestly though he was being kind) Maybe I was stupid. He 'missed his train' and got me very drunk, came back to mine and violated me basically. I daren't tell anyone for ages as he was 'such a great bloke', someone everyone knew and though the world of.

I , on the other hand was a bit of a goodtime girl, a drinker, someone who was always pissed etc. .. I did tell my closest friend who was brilliant, but to be honest, no-one else believed me. It was awful, I still can't go into the pub he took me to.

He was old, an old man who I trusted. It doesn't matter who it is, how it happened, where it happened. It is fucking awful.

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 14:41

OP

How do you feel now, having read the posts from rape survivors?

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 14:41

PlusCaChanges

We believe you

PlusCaChanges · 30/07/2014 14:44

Thank you Smile. I'm a bit wobbly just thinking about it!

backbystealth · 30/07/2014 14:46

I have not read the thread...will do so after I've posted this:

YABU

YABU

YABU