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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not see why people are so annoyed...?

365 replies

curiousgeorgie · 29/07/2014 23:31

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709730/Richard-Dawkins-sparks-outrage-Twitter-debate-saying-date-rape-bad-stranger-rape-worse.html

Sorry for the daily mail link, I know some don't like that.

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

OP posts:
GatoradeMeBitch · 30/07/2014 01:57

I assume he thinks that date rape is like reluctant sex, or regretted sex, but no violence or fear involved. I don't know what planet he's living on. Plenty of rape victims are brutalized by men they know, even men they are married to.

SqueakySqueak · 30/07/2014 01:59

in the murder the perpetrator would be treated differently by the courts

Uhm.. No. In court a family member shooting a person would be treated the same as a stranger shooting someone.

Sadly, rape is treated differently based on who did it, because people like you tend to think that a husband raping his wife isn't as bad a stranger in the bushes raping a woman.

So yes, frontier, it is a good question. Why IS rape treated differently in court based on who does it?

vicmackie · 30/07/2014 02:02

Jesus. Sorry, must've forgot this was mumsnet for a second and that you can't possibly have a reasonable discussions

I am confused as fuck right now. You started a thread about comparative levels of badness of being raped - like the league table of being raped that a lot of people seem to be very interested in (sample question "was he black?": yes = +10 etc etc - fuck off you freak) and people reacted and you started flipping your hair and rolling your eyes.

I've been raped twice: once stranger and once "date".
They were both equally bad.

It took me a very, very long time to figure out that my desperate, hand-wringing "why? why?!" reaction to both events had the same answer: because I am a woman. It wasn't personal! They didn't hate me because I was me and they didn't want to degrade and damage me because I was me.
They did it because I was a faceless, worthless, meaningless, soulless piece of shit with a hole between her legs (what we call "a woman" :) )

That's why men rape women: because women are women. The only thing that healed me was the realisation that I am a member of a hated, hated class. A lot of them hate us. Be aware of it.

differentnameforthis · 30/07/2014 03:01

But surely a stranger is worse?!

You are buying into the biggest rape myth that there is.

Rape is horrendous. Stranger, friend, date, marital. All of it.

Opposite of worse is better? Being raped by your date/husband doesn't automatically make it 'better'

RainbowB7 · 30/07/2014 03:06

YABVU.

I agree with the above comment from a pp that unfortunately some people seem to equate "date rape" with drunken regretted sex and that's why they think it's not as bad as "real rape". Really frustrating that so many people seem to think like that.

Being raped by someone you know, whether it's someone you know and trust like a friend or partner, or just someone you have been on a date with, doesn't mean it is going to be any less violent or in any way better or "milder" Angry

It's really upsetting to see well known and respected people like Dawkins (though personally I don't like him, I find him arrogant and insufferable) talking such rot. All this does is perpetuate the myth that the only real rape is stranger rape. Which is bollocks.

:(

LittlePeaPod · 30/07/2014 03:33

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

Did you actually, seriously consider what you are saying before posting this thread? Or, did you just think "Mmmmmm, I think this particular prick is right and I will go and start a thread on MN about the fact I agree there are varying levels of rape"? That should make for a nice interesting chat debate!

Seriously? Op can you please explain to me why you think there are varying degrees when someone is raped?

Alternatively......ODFOD!

kentishgirl · 30/07/2014 10:39

I've never been raped, so I can only try to imagine and empathise with those who have.

I think, that for me, both types would be equally horrendous, but maybe with different additional factors.

With a stranger rape, I think I would be afraid of also getting murdered.
with a known rapist, I think the betrayal of trust would be the additional factor.
But either type of rape would be the worst thing to ever happen to me.

StillStayingClassySanDiego · 30/07/2014 10:50

curious you've been mumsnetting long enough to know that there wasn't going to be a 'reasonable' discussion about this subject.

I'm surprised you even thought that.

DrunkenWhore · 30/07/2014 10:52

As far as I can see having someone shoving their penis inside you against your will would be pretty horrific and traumatic no matter who they are. It's not going to be a little bit nicer for you if it happens to be your boyfriend instead of Joe from down the fucking road is it? Rape is rape! Richard Dawkins is an idiot.

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 10:53

I've lost all respect for Dawkins

I won't read the article because it is the DM and it's tripe (thanks for warning us).

The only difference between rapes is the effect it has on the individual who has experienced it.

confusion77 · 30/07/2014 10:58

I have never experienced rape, and having thought about it a lot reading this, I certainly agree rape is rape whoever does it. I think though (possibly a rash generalisation.....) that the fear from a stranger rape would be worse - the fear of murder and the subsequent fear of going out etc.

I was sexually abused repeatedly as a child for many many years. I'm not at all sure whether or how it has affected me. I do consider that it wasn't as bad as some people suffer. So I do feel there are degrees.

Re murder - dead id dead. But what about 'method'? Recently I was in contact (work) with a man who stabbed then burnt his partner to death. That to be is worse than shooting someone who dies immediately.

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 10:59

OP

You jumped in really quickly to say your piece about reasonable discussions. There were just a few posts up to that point, none of which were abusive or sweaty.

Do you think people are likely to be unemotional about this topic?

NewtRipley · 30/07/2014 11:01

sweary, not sweaty

I don't see the point of discussing this in the abstract, when there are millions of people in this country who have experienced this and can tell you their views.

Nanny0gg · 30/07/2014 11:01

To be raped by a stranger means this scumbag did not see you as a person. They saw you as a means to an end. Nothing you did (not that that is ever a reason) caused this stranger to rape you. You were there wrong time wrong place. You were unlucky. To be raped by someone you know. They know you as a person. They know who you are, about your personality, likes/dislikes. Yet they still thought that you were worth nothing. You as a person meant so little to them they could violate you and not care. Does that mean you are a bad person? Does that make you at fault some how?

I think this sums it up perfectly. This is why his chosen analogy was so poor.

Wonder how Dawkins would try to counter it?

chockbic · 30/07/2014 11:19

Interesting he says in the piece that he can't condemn mild paedophilia.

Presumably he is using the same logic by not condemning mild rape.

No wonder the conviction rate for date rape (hate that phrase) is so low. When we all know the maniac, knife wielding rapist is the only kind of proper rapist. Sigh.

He really is an insufferable, superior idiot. Yet comments on the Guardian website largely support him...

Wisheswerehorses · 30/07/2014 11:25

There are varying degrees of murder, the variants are generally the intentions and the actions preceding the death. You do not get a lesser sentence for murdering someone that you know Hmm
When murder is reduced to manslaughter, it is usually because death was not the intended outcome. It is not possible for rape to be accidental.

Koothrapanties · 30/07/2014 11:37

I think that there is an incorrent assumption that rape by someone you know will be less violent.

I was raped by someone I knew and was seeing at the time. He seemed nice but he wasn't. It was very violent and I could not get away. This to me is no less awful than a stranger.

icanmakeyouicecream · 30/07/2014 11:38

I'm so gutted people think like this. I was raped by someone I knew. It was still gruesome.

Koothrapanties · 30/07/2014 11:45

*incorrect not incorrent.

I also think people still think you are safer with someone you know than a stranger. If this were true, no one would be raped by someone they knew. If anything they are more dangerous because they have tricked you into trusting them.

prettybird · 30/07/2014 11:49

The really shocking thing is that apparently Scots Criminal Law agrees with him ShockAngry

A Scots Legal blogger posted this up in outrage: Sexual history mitigates rape? It does in Scotland...

sezamcgregor · 30/07/2014 11:51

All rape is bad and all paedophilia is bad.

What he's trying to do is like comparing Rolf Harris ("bad") and Ian Watkins ("worse")

That's about as much sense as I can make of it.

Guitargirl · 30/07/2014 11:56

OP - your reasoning and that of Dawkins is so flawed I am not sure how to even begin to articulate it.

And what exactly did you aim to achieve by posting this? How is it possible to have a 'reasonable' discussion about what kind of rape is worse? Honestly? I am asking a genuine question. Please can you explain how or why you think that is an appropriate subject to debate.

KoalaDownUnder · 30/07/2014 11:56

He's not commenting on the topic. He used an utterly cackhanded example to try to explain a point in philosophy regarding logic.

Dead right, MaidofStars.

It's a shit analogy, and proves nothing except that Dawkins is not as smart as he claims to be.

Of course Thing A can be less bad than Thing B, yet still be bad. Where he went wrong is in thinking that everyone would agree that 'date rape' and 'rape by a stranger' are good examples to slot in to the analogy.

It's like saying 'A parent dying of cancer is bad. A parent dying from being murdered is worse. If you think that's an endorsement of cancer, go away and learn how to think'.

No, I just think it proves that you're an idiot who makes ignorant sweeping statements about the other people's horrific experiences.

Fuck off, you arrogant twat.

KoalaDownUnder · 30/07/2014 11:56

(The last statement was directed at Dawkins, btw, not the OP!)

MsAnthropic · 30/07/2014 11:57

I'm just saying that I don't understand the backlash...
But do you want to understand? Or do you just want to say I can't see the other point of view so there can't be one "He's not wrong"?

Which is it? I personally don't think one can properly argue a point unless one actually understands the other arguments fully.

YABU for saying "he isn't intending to offend, just make a point" because you really don't know that for a second
YABU if you can't understand and haven't done anything to try (i.e. properly listen openly and try put yourself in the position of the people who are upset)
YANBU if you do properly understand all the points of view and can logically make an argument for your position

IMHO, of course :)