To wonder why a thread about an ex soldier STARVING to death here in the UK

[NickiFury]

gets far less interest and response than any "shall I report my friend for benefit fraud" thread to be found here in AIBU.

People are only interested in the benefits system when they are able to attack those who rely on it, it seems, then they're all over it. No one cares when it utterly fails an individual such as this man.

David Clapson

Please note that a pile of CV's and job applications were found by David's body, he was actually searching for work when he starved to death here in one of the worlds wealthiest nations.

their

If I had a 'right' I would get it.
The issue is that they have denuded those rights. Being a stereotypical benefit scrounger wouldn't get me anymore money so I don't get your point.
They have been allowed to do this because people have fallen for the programme of propaganda that justifies beliefs like 'everyone knows someone who is cheating the system'.

Fair enough about 'everyone' tea. I should say 'everyone I personally know' but then I grew up in an area where there is high benefits dependency. Which of course raises the issue of job creation outside the SE.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the deserving and undeserving thing. In an ideal world with limitless money I think we could throw money into the wind. I think in the real world we have to accept that there are limits to who can be supported indefinitely. Obviously there are much bigger issues around wage levels and employment too. If we were forced to make a choice ('5 of these 10 people will get benefits, here are their circumstances, who would you give it to?') most people would probably pick roughly the same 5 people. Which means that at gut level we probably DO have a sense of who is the most deserving. We wouldn't necessarily be right of course! Exercises like that are often useful just to expose our prejudices and have them challenged.

In other words I think it is useful for us as a society to think about who the benefits system is there for and for how long. And to have an honest discussion about the limitations.

the benefit system is a mess

they have just made it worse with these reforms,one example i have experience of is the change to income support when youngest turns 5

now when the youngest turns 5 you go onto JSA,well these single parents are just thrown right in there,pressure to find a job,childcare,applying for jobs they have no experience with,have trouble making a cv etc

so they go onto ESA as they dont have to sign on,a doctor gives a sick note for three months and then the ESA gets more difficult to recieve as you may or may or not have to have a medical through the DWP,

some may be applicable to be on ESA with an increase in the benefit after 14 wks on it some will have to go back on JSA if they are seen fit for work,but at the time the parent has 14wks before they have to "prove "they are unfit for work

how much is all this costing going back and forth,the jobcente are worrying these parents with job searches etc,they have no idea what to do,threatened with sanctions they take at the time the easiest way out but it only delays them going back onto JSA

the goverment has made a right mess of this,the cost must be huge,it all started with saving money but from what i see it's going to cost more because of ill thought out policys

I keep X-posting and I know this is frustrating. All I can tell you is that I have worked very closely with the benefits system at one time so I have seen this inequity in action. And we do absolutely have to discuss who is entitled to benefits because until we are mature enough to do that governments will target the people who are least able to defend themselves. We have to realise there isn't a bottomless pit of money and so the people who need to get it are those who are most in danger of starving, not those who can get by without it.

I wish somebody would have pointed this poor man in the direction of The Royal British Legion

They help with emergency food cards for supermarkets, bills, retraining costs and sadly they can also help with the cost of his funeral so that he doesn't have to have a paupers one (as suggested up thread). They could have also helped him with benefits claims ad even sent him on a break/holiday.
The only criteria is you must have served for 7 days or more.

It is such a sad state of affairs

But as I keep saying, despite your experiences, fraud only accounts for less than 1% of the benefits bill. Pensions accounts for 49% of the benefits bill. You can't force people into jobs that aren't there. Forcing them to do workfare schemes is slavery, that too is wrong. I'm sorry, but a government that removes choice is a dictatorship and if we are to have a system that supports us all, when we need it, we have to accept that a) our perspective is not always correct, no matter how much it appears to be so in a small part of the country and b) that there will always be a minority that takes the piss out of a system but businesses will always do so on a far, far grander scale, as will MPs.

how they expect an over 25yrs to manage on £72 a week is beyond me and thats before any sanctions

i still dont believe that the fraud rate is less than 1%,it has to be more,is it 1% conviction then if it is there will be more than that not everybody gets caught

and also why do you believe government figures,do you believe all government figures are true then

somebody once posted the fraud percentages on here and i laughed when it said there was 0% pension fraud,well thats funny because papers often report of relatives claiming there relatives pension credit once deceased,and it has been known pensioners claiming credit/hb whilst having over the limit savings

so as much as certain parts of the benefits system anger me and feel some get a raw deal im also realistic that fraud is a problem

Dawn I'm not saying that they are all fraud. My point is that whether people like it or not there are people who do very well out of the benefits system and people who are badly let down. There is only so much money to go round. So this is really a wider point about who the benefits system is there for. I agree that only a tiny % is out and out fraud but I also think we need to re-evaluate who the benefits system is there to support because there is only a finite amount of money. And because of this the government starts clawing back money, usually from the Davids of this world who can't defend themselves.

It could be that no one would disagree with the wrongness of the situation, so it's not going to attract as much debate.

Do you always believe everything you read in the papers ilovechristmas.
dawndonna is right. The figures ARE less than 1%.

And under 25s are having just as bad a time of it
a. they are on a lower amount of JSA.
b. not all of them have loving parents they can live with.
c. some of them have just left /are leaving the care system.
d. as far as im aware none of the big supermarkets have a special under 25s discount section.

For a long time I have thought that people on benefits should be entitled to go and get a hot meal in a designated place paid for by the state. I know it smacks of soup kitchens and workhouses but I do think giving people food and shelter, clothing. medicines and a free bus pass and not money would solve many problems in the benefit system.

This man would not have died if that system had been in place. There is a place in our town where homeless men can go and get a hot meal, wash and get help with medicine, someone to help them write a letter, advice, support. It is paid for by our local church. Not part of the benefit system.

Maybe we should start asking why the government aren't clawing back unpaid tax from Amazon, Vodafone, Starbucks et al instead of blaming benefits claimants?

It's easy to blame the poor. They're often the least able to speak out for themselves.

Such a shame supposedly educated people fall for the media driven hyperbole time and time again.

This is a tragedy, there is no doubt about it. But what should then be done about claimants who don't turn up to sign their jobseeking agreements or appear for meetings with the DWP? Should their benefit entitlement carry on regardless? As a far as I can see in this case this man did not inform the DWP that he was vulnerable, he didn't let his family know he was struggling, he didn't apply for hardship funding, he didn't apply to the Foodbank or any other external sources of support. I'm not saying that he hasn't been failed but I don't think the entire blame lies with the DWP.

The problem with that Beta is it takes away too many choices and would severely restrict the freedoms of, for example, those with disabilities.

dawn - I agree it would restrict freedoms. However, what worries me is that too many people on benefits cannot look after themselves or their family. They really need more than just some money.

Disabled people of course need accessible assistance.

I was on benefits a couple of years ago. I look after four people with disabilities. Dh and three dc. I honestly feel that I'm entitled to choose our menu, do our own shopping, choose our clothes, all really important things to those with ASDs, but also to the occasional bottle of wine. Once you limit those freedoms, the world becomes a far more dangerous place albeit in a very different way.

Very sad.

I work with young people who live on 57.35 per week. One was sanctioned as they couldn't afford to travel 20miles for an adviser appointment (no explanation as to why this wasn't taking place in the local jobcentre).

Brutha a lot of men and women leaving the services are just too proud to go and ask for help, to admit they are vulnerable. He might have felt that his family would be unable to help him, the view is that the RBL is for those in REAL need, and he might not have believed that that was him. He could have contacted SSAFA, ABF or the RSA as he was an ex scaley. The Army teaches you to be self reliant, squaddies tend to be less than kind about people on benefits, it stays with them.

If he was depressed, either due to low mood, or poor management of his diabetes, he might not have been able to call or keep in touch, depression does that to a person, it replaces their feelings and mojo with apathy. Once he had been sanctioned, it may well have been his 'ah, fuck it' moment and he simply gave up.

The system is badly failing service leavers, less so the 1000's who have recently been made redundant, although I could tell you stories about the 'resettlement' fiasco, but guys who left a few years ago would have been able to leave with no qualifications, not even their GCSEs. What possible hope did they have of finding and keeping a job when the economy went tits up?

less than 1% fact you stated,as i asked is that the conviction rate ??

does that mean that the DWP catch all fraudulent claimants then

you know as well as i do Governments make there own figures up when it suits as well as other organizations

look at the job less figures,because your on a government approved "scheme" and getting JSA which we all know is payed to the unemployed,their wiped of the figures,making the government look like there doing a good job

i totally agree on the under 25's with you and also the single unemployed and have stated what a raw deal they get on another thread today,so dont think im pro conservative im not and dont follow any political party,just because i dont believe for a second the figures dosent mean to say i dont believe in the welfare state,hell im a benefit claimant myself and have had many dealings with the DWP over the years

anyway we will both have are views and i've slightly de -railed the thread so i will leave it there

Flossy the RBL do a great job, unfortunately pride gets in the way of asking for help, I met quite a few Veterans when I worked with a homeless charity, most were really lovely guys but they hated being reliant on others having had the military mentality instilled.

Benefits system needs to be overhauled but not by the government.

However big you make the safety net, there will always be people who slip through it. I do not see this problem getting any better any time soon, regardless of who wins next years election.You can't just keep expanding the welfare state exponentially.

Neither can you limit it, Barley.

This is very true Pink and I find a lot of my job is convincing vets that asking for help from the RBL or any other service is ok.

The line that works at the moment is 'Do you remember a portion of your wages that you paid to the regiment?'
'Well they were like paying subs at a working mans club. It's like paying in to a savings fund you can access later'.

It is still a struggle to support them to overcome their pride.

This man was let down and nobody noticed or cared (those in charge of his benefits). I wonder how they thought he would survive once they cut his money.