To wonder why a thread about an ex soldier STARVING to death here in the UK

[NickiFury]

gets far less interest and response than any "shall I report my friend for benefit fraud" thread to be found here in AIBU.

People are only interested in the benefits system when they are able to attack those who rely on it, it seems, then they're all over it. No one cares when it utterly fails an individual such as this man.

David Clapson

Please note that a pile of CV's and job applications were found by David's body, he was actually searching for work when he starved to death here in one of the worlds wealthiest nations.

There's a lot of it about

To be fair to the forces, they've been being cut for years too, to the extent that they haven't been able to equip the people in active service.

I do know of one veterans charity called Veteran's Aid which would have been able to help Mr Clapson. The trouble is that no one pointed him in their direction or them in his.

If anyone does come across a veteran in a bad state, please get hold of VA - www.veterans-aid.net/

RIP David Clapson
The point is that there will be people who don't have a forces background or supportive family or who have MH issues or who are too proud or have LD or chaotic lives.
If he can fall through the cracks lots of people can.

Utterly tragic, but out of curiosity, why wasn't he taking his insulin?

How awful Poor David

Nobody should die of starvation in a developed country in this day and age.

The system is just all wrong.

RIP David

jollyphonics I think the problem with the insulin is that the fridge wasn't working which would mean the insulin was no good (can't quite remember why).

No-one actually gives a shit that's why. It can't be denied when its there in black and white in front of them, it is so much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening when there is no name to the person who is starving, or homeless or dying. When you can actually see their face on a photo and have to fave up to facts, its hard.

He should not have died. It is disgraceful that he did. The people who allowed his death to happen don't give a fuck though!

Having read more, it seems he stopped injecting his insulin because he just gave up. To me this is a suicide due to depression brought on by poverty, rather than death due to starvation. Of course that is no less tragic, but it is different.

SkinnyChip - I don't know anyone who is defrauding the benefits system. And given that benefits fraud accounts for less than 1% of the benefits bill, I think it's highly likely that lots of us don't know anyone who is defrauding the benefits system.

Attitudes of 'oh, loads of people are on the fiddle' are precisely why men like David Clapson end up ignored, stigmatised and desperate. And dead.

I didn't know how to word what I think about it really. Yes, the benefit fuckup was detrimental and lead sadly to his death. It needs overhauling, I don't know how people protest against the govt to make them wake up.

On the other hand, I also think that our communities, generally, have shrunk to households. We have become a world that looks out for ourselves only. I remember neighbourhoods growing up where people looked out for each other, made sure our neighbours were okay and helped them in time of need. There will always be fuckups by govt agencies, how can we step in to help our neighbours, brothers, sisters before they get into such a situation. I know not everyone can offer financial support to someone in need, but we can surely find some time at least to help them push their case, and find support from other agencies for them.

Very sad.

I cant help noticing that those who have been posting disparaging comments on the body shaming threads haven't yet posted on this one.
Yet they claim to care about the links between food and public health

People who have to use food banks cant afford to buy ANY food let alone healthier foodstuffs which is more expensive.

Yet many still refuse to accept there is definitely a link between poverty and poor health.

Its because they don't WANT to see it. Because then they would have to admit that the policies of the politicians that they voted in are causing the problems.

i cant believe anybody CANT believe there is a link between poverty and poor health

Skinny when you fall for the propaganda that everyone know a benefit thief and therefore it is their fault that the deserving lose out, you contribute to the culture that allows people to die for lack of support.

Everyone does NOT know a benefit cheat. Everyone has seen a thread on an internet forum where someone claims to know the intimate financial details of a neighbour, friend or family member. Everyone has seen a threads where someone claims someone is living the high life whilst laughing their heads off at Decent Hard Working Families.

That is NOT the same as knowing someone who is claiming fraudulently

Jollyphonics he had no money to buy electricity to keep his insulin refrigerated, or to buy any food to eat. His stomach was empty. He may have been depressed and given up, but that is still the fault of the DWP who left an insulin dependent diabetic without the means to safely store his medicine, or the means to eat. I don't call that suicide.

Of course that is no less tragic, but it is different.
He was still let down by a system that should have been supporting him, not penalising him.

I don't want to say too much about the ins and outs of this because of confidentiality issues but I can tell you from my own experience that the benefit system is not fit for purpose and often the more savvy and less needy do much better out of it, at the expense of people who are more vulnerable but who therefore don't have the ability to fight for themselves. It's not a popular viewpoint on MN but it doesn't alter the fact that sometimes lots of money goes to people who are less 'deserving' for want of a better phrase, at the expense of the people who really need it most.

I stress that I have a lot of client-related experience in this area; this is not simply anecdotal in the 'My mate's gran knows someone on the fiddle' way.

The benefits system is brilliant in principle. I don't begrudge paying for it in the same way that I don't begrudge paying towards the NHS. But in both cases when resources are stretched people fall through the net and it's shameful. If we want to keep both the NHS and the benefits system there needs to be an honest conversation about what needs to change. Because every time we refuse to admit that reform is needed politicians take the path of least resistance - and the people who suffer for this are the poorest, the weakest and the most vulnerable. People like David in fact.

The thing is, it isn't at the expense of someone else, skinny. Yes, there is fraud, bound to be, in any system, look at the tax system for starters. But neither system works by removing benefits from one to pay another. If you are entitled to it, then you don't get less because someone who isn't entitled has got it. You still get it. The problems start when those who do need it are not able to access those who can help them fight for what they rightfully need to claim. They start when an unfair system, eg. sanctions, is put in place by a government that is concerned only with appeasing the Fail readership, not in the least concerned about the poor and vulnerable other than to use them as scapegoats for their own failings. Their failings to create a cohesive society, to create a real jobs market, to get the NHS to function properly, to ensure the education of our children. FFs they can't even get the trains running properly, this lot couldn't manage the proverbial piss up.

And Devere I am not just talking about the out and out fraudsters who are rarer than the Daily Mail etc. would have us believe. I'm talking about the way the whole system is weighted against low income, working families and low income, working families who lose their jobs and find themselves in crisis. It's weighted against people who are marginalised and without champions to speak for them - the sick, the disabled, the elderly.

Too much money goes to people who needed benefits at one time but who no longer NEED them, they have simply grown accustomed to benefits and feel entitled to them. Again not a popular viewpoint on MN but I used to work with some of these people on a daily basis. Until then I didn't realise how fundamentally flawed the benefits system was and how drastically it needs reformed. There are people who 'got in' to the benefits system at the right time and have lived there quite comfortably ever since. It infuriates me because now there is the inevitable backlash against this - but it's easier to penalise the weak and vulnerable than go after the loud and bolshie 'I know my rights!' brigade.

Criticising aspects of the benefits system does not make you a benefits basher any more than criticising aspects of the NHS makes you in favour of privatised healthcare. Honest, mature discussion is needed.

The system is shite.

One person who is unpleasant and has never worked a single day in their life is not taking money off a nice ex nurse who has fallen on hard times.

If I lost my job tomorrow I would be a member of 'I know my rights brigade' because I do.

Why does that make a difference? Would me knowing my rights take money off some poor bloke with LDs? Me advocating for myself would at least give him a chance of accessing scarce resources that I don't need.

Actually Dawn I think you've picked up the main issue: who is entitled to benefits and for how long. I think that is the fundamental question that needs to be asked and no one wants to be seen to be asking it, least of all politicians. It's a debate for the whole of society because 'society' is paying for it. But I do know that we can't just keep throwing money into it without asking the question because eventually the money pot runs dry and that's when people start slipping through the cracks. Start dying in fact. Often, IMO, the people who really WERE the most entitled and deserving.

Theres that hard working families again.

What about single people or couples without kids. The number of single person households has soared in recent years.

Yet the rhetoric doesn't reflect that.

Yes Devere and unless you had a very special set of circumstances you could squeal about rights till the cows came home. It wouldn't get you the money you needed.

I used to believe the benefits system would be there to back up people who need it most. at that now. Until we really figure out who the benefits system is for they will keep taking money off the 'poor bloke with Lds' exactly because he's the easiest target.

In that sense we agree - the system is shite.

X-posted Darkest and totally agree. To quote my last post:

Unless you had a very special set of circumstances you could squeal about rights till the cows came home. It wouldn't get you the money you needed.

I take your points about the inequities of the system, chip, but without wishing to be pedantic you did in fact say 'EVERYONE knows someone who is exploiting the benefits system to avoid working'... Which is simply not the case and does, whether you mean for it to or not, perpetuate the very problems you highlight.

This rhetoric of 'deserving and undeserving' does no one any favours at all.

Skinny It's not squealing about rights, it's reasonably pointing out that despite what this government thinks and there insidious little tale of the deserving and undeserving poor, of shirker and worker, we still have rights, the single person out of work has rights, as do the families, as do the disabled, and they can even go on to procreate whilst accessing those benefits. Yes, we need to have a discussion about those benefits, but not about entitlement to them because whilst we're talking about entitlement people are getting malnutrition, accessing foodbanks and dying. The governments own figures put fraud at less than 1%. There are businesses defrauding the tax office with sums larger than the whole benefits 'scam'. Until we stop demonising everybody on benefits, and allowing the Daily Fail and the Government to do so, people will continue to die.