To think being anti Israel isn't the same as being anti semetic

[JazzAnnNonMouse]

Just like being anti extremist terrorist isn't the same as being anti Muslims.

janine Do you think all the Sinn Fein voters are thick? There was no appetite for an armed struggle to achieve a United Ireland prior to the events that occurred during the early civil rights movement. The official IRA was dead in the water. When Stormont made the North a cold house for Catholics and the British Army, who had initially been welcomed as protection for the nationalist people, shot unarmed civil rights demonstrators and labelled them as terrorists, the people turned to the IRA. They thought that they would never be treated fairly under British/ Unionist rule, so of course a United Ireland became much more important and the PIRAs ranks swelled. Obviously there is too much detail to go fully into here but the main point of relevance in referencing NI with Gaza is that peace cannot be achieved without equality. The UN have said thst Israel's blockade of the Gaza strip contravenes International law and denies the Palestinian people their basic human rights. This, not to mention the several other UN resolutions that Israel are currently ignoring, needs to be addressed for there to be a chance for a peace agreement.

Bambambini

Or, as Miko Peled put it, Israel started out as new nation wishing to remove and ethically cleanse the Arab inhabitants of Palestine, and to destroy the weak armies of the surrounding Arab countries.

It's not the same issue.

YANBU

I think the NI stuff is a red herring although have noticed that certain factions of community in NI fly Palestinian or Israeli flags

Ronald

Do you suppose the NI stuff is thrown onto threads about Israel in order to derail the threads and divert discussion away from the current awful problem of the destruction of Gaza, the oppression of Palestinians, and thousands of people being maimed and killed?

I think that people are frightened of being manipulated by the media or by terrorist organisations. They want to root for a 'good guy' and don't understand that sometimes that is a moveable feast. People are also terribly frightened of being seen as anti Semitic and I believe that Israel uses that incredibly well.
There seems to be a real reluctance to acknowledge that there is no reason for Israel to behave in this manner.

The NI problem has been going on as an Ireland/England problem for hundreds of years. Everyone has a different take upon it and we all think we are right.
I think that conflating NI with Gaza is utterly wrong but I am unsure that it is meant as a deliberate hijack. Perhaps people are trying to discuss their confusion over what happened in NI and are indicating that if they couldn't get their heads around that then what hope have they with Gaza?

Thank you for posting the video of Miko Peled - it was very interesting. over the past few weeks I've heard over and over again the tale of how Israel just wanted peace but they were attacked incessantly and had no choice but to retaliate but I'd also read (once) that what Miko Peled talked about (the ethnic cleansing carried out by Israel after the partition).

It seems to me history is presented in different ways depending on what the presenter's agenda is.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a history and politics dunce. It can be hard to know who is telling the truth when you're not sure where to start looking or what actually is reliable material to read.

WRT conflating this situation with NI - perhaps for some it is a point of reference to try to start to understand what is going on now in this conflict?

Thanks for responses to my question on NI, it's reassuring.

Bambam International law does allow people to defend themselves it's not the case that following international law means you're left defenceless and just have to accept being slaughtered. Indeed, Israel is arguing now that they are acting in self-defence. But you are not supposed to violate international law yourself in defending yourself for example, even if your enemy is using human shields, it is not 'okay' to just shoot them anyway.

Israel has options for dealing with Hamas other than indiscriminately bombing Gaza -- this was not a last resort situation.

Berry the problem with the 'people should just move on' logic is that you could equally apply it to the Palestinians. Why can't they just accept that they lost wars to Israel in 1948 and 1967 and make new homes for themselves in neighbouring Arab countries? Why are they entitled to a state just for Palestinians?

I also think it's problematic to compare the Jews, who throughout their history have been a minority population subject to horrendous persecution and death throughout the world, to Catholics, who have comprised one of the world's largest religions and strongest powers for centuries.

To be clear, I think the answer is a Jewish state and a Palestinian state -- but with events in recent years, this scenario is increasingly becoming impossible.

NI could kick off again but with rebranded protagonists
Male Protestant working class boys are doing very badly in school and this will eventually result in a group of lowly paid young men from one sector of NI society.
IMO that is very worrying because it will take no time for the old rhetoric to begin
The poor in NI have been v poorly treated on both sides tbh but the majority segregated education system seems to be much more effective for RC children ATM

This is the thread about Israel. If somebody tries to derail it onto different topics, consider if you want to fall into their trap.

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I am jewish

That's very interesting, Ronald.

I don't think talking about NI is derailing comparing conflicts can be a useful way for people to learn, also useful in terms of thinking about possible conflict resolution strategies. It's not totally irrelevant.

I am Jewish and being Jewish in Britain is not pretty. I am not religious and I don't stand out as Jewish but in my area there are increased anti semitic sentiment. There are swastikas on the walls outside peoples houses, people are shouting anti semitic comments out of cars, children are being attacked in the street. For the first time in my life I dont feel comfortable being Jewish in Britain. I don't like Netanyahu, I never have done, I strongly disapprove of the settlements and have been very vocal about that. I'm not even crazy keen on Israel as a country but for the first time ever my friends and I have started talking about how we need to think about getting our children speaking ivrit because moving to Israel might one day be the best option for british Jews. That's the reality for many of us. I'm 4th generation British and I am scared.

I'm sorry to hear that. I have heard of such things but not seen them.

If you move to Israel and speak out against the oppression of Arabs, and the illegal settlements, will people still shout at you in the street?

I think most people are simply nauseated by the bombing and traumatising of children, who in turn will go on to hate and to kill.

Princess, that sounds deeply uncomfortable.

I have never understood this and never will. People are people. How can religion cause so much slaughter?

I have a couple of friends, who in turn are best friends. They are both women in their 30s. One is Jewish, with friends and relatives in Israel. One is Muslim with friends and family in Pakistan. For them it's friendship first, and their families are completely ok with it. If only there were more like them.

Blimey john conversations do evolve you know! It's not a conspiracy it's a debate ... Which has expanded to include wider topics relating to historical religious conflict

Princess I am sorry you feel that way x it sounds very stressful and scary

Princess I feel exactly the same. DH and I had a talk only yesterday about the possibility of us having to leave Europe. I am third generation and believe me when I say that it was not a conversation I ever imagined having. I don't know where we'd go.

How dreadful Lemon :(This is like the 30s. It's awful.

hi gordy

In terms of historical comparison, I suppose we have to look at when Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany agreed to be buddies and invade and occupy Poland.

They both brutalised and deported the existing population, seizing their homes and other possessions and moving in their own people as "settlers." There was of course a great deal of oppression on racial and ethnic grounds, and the territory was ethnically cleansed.

This was prior to the building of extermination camps, so any killings would have been on an ad hoc basis, and might have averaged less than the few hundred a day which Israel is committing in Gaza. The people who had lost their homes and lands had to be concentrated into enclosures under the control of the invaders.

Even the names of towns and villages were changed from their historic names to names suiting the invading occupier. Monuments by the previous inhabitants were destroyed so that history could be rewritten.

Have I mentioned yet anything that has not happened in Israel's seizure of Arab lands?

I think it is difficult for a lot of people to not see Israel and the actions of Israel as being on behalf of 'Jews'
Weirdly that means that Israel's faux vulnerable projections might in the end become a reality due to their acts of completely OTT aggression whilst trying to defend Israel
If this continues I believe Israel will lose the support of the world and most importantly the US and that the mass of public opinion will turn against 'Jews'

I would suggest that you and everyone you know make very clear to all and sundry that what is happening in Israel is not the actions of 'Jews' but the actions of the Israeli govt and something that you don't back in anyway
If that occurs then I believe that Jewish people will continue to happily live happily all over Europe with the understanding, sympathy and support of other communities
I know English people who were intimidated in NI due to strong anti English feeling. They made their feelings clear and people generally got the picture

$30 Billion, I believe.

It's bec