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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think being anti Israel isn't the same as being anti semetic

177 replies

JazzAnnNonMouse · 27/07/2014 10:10

Just like being anti extremist terrorist isn't the same as being anti Muslims.

OP posts:
Pumpkinpositive · 27/07/2014 14:48

Is being pro Hamas to be anti Semitic? Hmm, I actually think that it is, given that their stated aim is that Israel has no right to exist at all

I seem to remember reading about a Jewish religious sect/order who opposed Israel's existance. On religious grounds. They believed only God could create a Jewish state, not man.

Can't for the life of me remember the name of the group.

Pumpkinpositive · 27/07/2014 14:52

Neturei Karta! Thank you, Google.

An orthodox Jewish religious group, they support peaceful dismantling of the State of Irael:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

FairPhyllis · 27/07/2014 14:56

Israel was the historic homeland of the ethnic Jewish people, Jews have continuously lived there for millennia despite exile, diaspora, conquest etc, if in small numbers at times. Jewish religion and culture are heavily bound up with place and with the idea of Israel existing as a nation in that particular spot and particularly with having Jerusalem as its capital in a way which seems to me relatively unique among cultures. The place of Utah in Mormonism is the only thing I can think of as comparable, although Mormons are not an ethnic group.

So when you get to the point where you have a ethnic Jewish nationalism - i.e. a political movement where you identify as a nation with a right to a territory - there isn't really any other part of the world where you can sensibly locate the focus of your nationalism. And as pps have said Israel didn't come about arbitrarily, it was more the result of a nationalist movement that had begun maybe a century before, compounded by the horror felt by the world at centuries of persecution of the diaspora having culminated in the Holocaust.

So the problem with saying that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, as I see it, is that you're saying that Jews uniquely among all ethnic groups of the world don't have the right to a nationalism. And singling them out as the only group in the world who are not allowed a nationalism is just, well, racist. It is very much consistent with and part of a historical anti-Semitism which asserts that Jews are "uniquely bad" in some way.

Now there are plenty of reasons why you might want to say that nationalism is a bad thing. But bear in mind that most Palestinian Arabs are nationalists too and want the same thing as the Israelis: a nation state of their own. So you can't simultaneously deny Jews a right to a nationalism while granting it to the Palestinians.

But neither can you do the reverse: so I'm of the opinion that the Palestinians need to get a proper, viable nation state too. But achieving that is likely to require sacrificial action on both sides, and I'm not confident that there are figures on either side who are capable of doing that, or capable of getting their people to accept the price of peace.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 27/07/2014 15:02

Great post, fair Phyllis

Abra1d · 27/07/2014 15:06

The illegal settlements seem to be at the heart of the problem. The UN and most western governments seem to agree. Israel has the moral/religious/historical right to exist in peace, but it would be easier to support her were it not for the settlements.

That said, Hamas is a repugnant organisation.

Backinthering · 27/07/2014 15:17

I agree of course being anti-Israeli actions isnt' the same as being anti-Semitic. Plenty of Jewish people are very against Israel's actions.
I think the current lot running Israel are every bit as bad as Hamas - actually worse, in real terms, as they're killing an awful lot more people.

maddening · 27/07/2014 15:21

I do wish that israel had never been created by displacing the resident population and their subsequent actions - but now they do exist I suppory their right to exist and yet can see the pov of the palestinians - i don't know how it can ever be resolved - th differences are far too wide and hatred too deeply ingrained.

Yanbu op - you can be against the actions of a nation without being against the religion in which they believe.

GodDamnBatman · 27/07/2014 15:27

Well, "Anti-Isreal" is a bit of a loaded term. But you're not anti-semantic for thinking they're being stupid right now.

I pointed out that both sides were just as terrible for targeting civilians on a friend's fb status, and someone replied saying that Isreal defending itself and is the good guy because they warn the people to get out before firing. Basically victim blaming the civilians for not getting out in time.

I have nothing against Jews, and have Jewish friends. Both sides need to stop. But... there's not really an easy solution. Both sides want all of the land instead of sharing it.

PigletJohn · 27/07/2014 15:32

Pumpkinpositive

Is being pro Hamas to be anti Semitic?

Have you seen many pro-Hamas people round here?

I've seen quite a few who are opposed to killing and maiming, but don't remember people saying they were Hamas supporters.

Is being anti-slaughter to be pro-Hamas?

MyFairyKing · 27/07/2014 16:16

YANBU but there is a rise in anti Semitism, particularly in France and Germany, so I can see why so many Jews feel attacked and vulnerable.

Backinthering · 27/07/2014 16:34

There's also a rise of some very scary stuff within Israel.
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/26/gaza-israel-palestinian-protest

Bambambini · 27/07/2014 16:44

"Cheers dreaming I lived there very briefly some years ago so I got very interested in all the history of the region, but it's a bit rusty now as I haven't looked at it in a while!

Incidentally, one of the few things I learnt about the whole situation from being there myself was that it's very hard to make any kind of judgement about what's right and wrong there without actually experiencing it first-hand. I left the UK with a solidly pro-Palestinian view and came back having realised that the majority of Israelis are normal people who just want a life that doesn't involve constant war, or the fear of suicide bombings or nuclear annihilation within decades. The place I was working in was near the wall between Israel and Gaza, and most of the Israelis I met didn't like the fact that it was there and agreed that it was probably even worse for the Palestinians. But then they also told me about how they remembered the time before it was built, how they were afraid to even leave their houses because there were so many suicide bombings in the area, and asked what else should they have done, and I didn't know the answer. The same with Israeli soldiers - at home I had heard reports of them killing and mistreating Palestinians and thought they must be horrible people, but when I got there and remembered that my close friends who were the same age as me were going to be conscripted soon I realised that most of them were just normal young people who genuinely believed they were doing the only thing they could for their country.

It's very easy to sit in the peace and safety of the UK (or wherever) and say 'Israel is inhumane, they should do X' or 'the Palestinians are terrorists, they should do Y' when you've never had the experience of being constantly afraid for the safety of yourself and your loved ones, or feeling like your basic rights are being denied by another country's government. When people are in that situation they do what's best for them, and maybe to the rest of the world it looks terrible (complicated further by the fact that it's also a propaganda war, and nothing either side says can be trusted), but for them it's the only choice they can choose"

Sums up exactly how I feel about it. Lived and worked in Israel for a short while over 20 yrs ago. First briefly with Palestinians and then for a longer term with Israelis. I could see both sides point of view and sympathise with both. The Palestinians are in an awful situation, there is no question - and most people In the UK have no true idea what threat the Israelis have faced from their neighbours or give any true thought to what it is like to live under the constant threat of suicide bombings and rockets.

Both sides have voted in the extreme haters - Hamas and Netanyahu's lot, so how they are me at to move forward I have no idea. Israel should never have been allowed to expand and build their illegal settlements though - not sure how more pressure wasn't put on them regarding this.

somewheresafe · 27/07/2014 16:49

I deplore israels actions. I am Jewish. Everyone I know feels the same, especially family. We feel the massacre of the palestinian people has been done in our name and in the name of three poor teens who we now know we're not murdered by Hamas.

This is not about anti semitism. The world has a right to criticise israels military actions without being called anti semitic. Despite my horror at the completely disproportionate, illegal and immoral actions of israel I believe israel has every right to exist. But it must therefore allow palestinians a right to exist too no?

Surely israel cannot keep claiming to be the victim of rockets, not having the right to exist, peace for its citizens if it doesn't allow palestinians the same.

Bambambini · 27/07/2014 17:54

I haven't seen that development. Who murdered the teenagers?

Backinthering · 27/07/2014 18:00

Extremists acting independently, likely in revenge for the IDF shooting two teenagers dead.

PigletJohn · 27/07/2014 18:31

An eye for an eye and we all end up blind.

alAswad · 27/07/2014 18:41

Bambambini I agree with your last paragraph.

Re Hamas and the abducted teenagers, I don't really see how it makes much difference - even if they had admitted responsibility from the start, I can't see how the Israeli response over the last weeks could ever be considered proportionate. Bibi is a crazy racist who's also somewhat psychopathic, and I can't see any hope for peace while he's in power. I don't know when the next election is but unfortunately I can't see there being much of a leftward shift either in the current political climate. The chances of the Palestinians voting for a more moderate party now after what they've been through recently are also practically zero.

Incidentally this might be a really stupid question but people have mentioned Israel violating international law - are Hamas not doing the same by firing rockets at civilians? Is it that the rules are different because it's not an independent state, or are they acting illegally and no-one's mentioning it because no-one expects better from them anyway iyswim?

Wannabestepfordwife · 27/07/2014 18:45

I'm not anti-Israel or anti-Semetic (I'm of Jewish descent) but I'm anti-Netanyahu and his administration in the same way I'm anti Blair, Bush, Putin, Gaddafi, Assad, Mugabe. I just don't feel there is any need to have war mongering psychotic leaders

PigletJohn · 27/07/2014 18:47

Bambamini

"Israel should never have been allowed to expand and build their illegal settlements though - not sure how more pressure wasn't put on them regarding this"

Everyone knows that Israel's illegal settlements, colonising the occupied territories, is key to peace.

Israel has the mighty power of the US protecting it, so it pays no attention to international law or world opinion.

Occasionally, the thin, weak voice of the US politely suggests that maybe Israel might consider reducing the number of illegal settlements (colonies). Israel then builds some more.

Thefishewife · 27/07/2014 18:59

Agreed but until both sides get tired of the fight things will never change in Northern Ireland people just got sick of the fighting and both side came to see power sharing was the only way

Wishyouwould · 27/07/2014 18:59

YANBU at all.

thecatfromjapan · 27/07/2014 19:04

YANBU. And what Revenant said.

meltedmonterayjack · 27/07/2014 19:04

It's completely possible to be against Israeli policies but not against Jews, but as other posters have said, many people can't or won't separate the two and anti-semitic incidents are increasing as the death toll of Palestinian civilians rises. It's similar to the anti-Muslim feeling in the wake of 9/11 when Muslims were targeted. People are rightly angry, and anyone who is obviously Muslim at such a time, or obviously Jewish at this time, is more vulnerable.

Like a lot of Jews, I feel horribly uncomfortable being Jewish at the moment and feel I have a responsibility to point out that a lot of us want an end to the bloodshed. Though, I do have to say, many Jews I know won't hear a word said against Israel's policies when it comes to defense and need to put a stop to HAMAS and ISIS. There seem to be a fair number of Zionists where I am, and that really worries me.

Micksy · 27/07/2014 19:14

We trend to express opposition to a country's policies with different words depending on how rounded a view we have of a country. People will say they are anti Russian because for most people we only hear about Russia as a political rather than cultural entity. We are very unlikely to say we are anti British as we experience Britain as a cultural entity first. People may identify as anti American as its political influence is so huge, but are much less likely as its cultural presence is of a matching size. Israel only exists to most of us in political terms, so anti Israel means anti Israeli foreign policy. It's a blunt and insensitive expression that does relate how great a degree of otherness we feel about a country, but I don't think it innately demonstrates any bigotry against a people. Its just a view of a government that has not been moderated by a more intimate knowledge of the culture as a whole.

Pumpkinpositive · 27/07/2014 19:26

Pumpkinpositive
Is being pro Hamas to be anti Semitic?

Have you seen many pro-Hamas people round here?

Not sure why you're quoting me. I was quoting someone else.

I haven't seen any pro Hamas people around here. Have you?