to be glad that people find more things offensive these days?

[Goldmandra]

This is inspired by a comment on another thread which implied that this is a bad thing.

Isn't it better that jokes about mental health, immigration, rape, etc, are seen as less socially acceptable than they used to be. I think it's a sign that our society is changing in a positive way.

Or is it PC gone mad?

MaidofStars- that baffles me. I wouldn't be "offended" by that either.has anyone said they were?

Oh, and I said what I said because I wanted to say it, not because I didn't want to say what you thought I should say. In fact, I didn't consider what you thought I should say at all.

Ok

It all makes perfect sense to me! Tsk.

Hakluyt - it's an illustration of how 'being offended' is a meaningless thing to say/be. It's special pleading for another emotion/feeling, one that would be far better vocalised. Hence my premise that I'm not really glad that people are more offended these days, because it indicates the propogation of the special bubble that everyone feels they are entitled to.

oh yes my family voice they are offended if called p*ki because now they foolishly have stepped into this special precious bubble

it was much better in the good old days when they put up and shut up and thought less of themselves for ignoring racist offensive remarks about the colour of their skin and their cultural background as white privileged people know (and lets not forget they always know best history tells us that) that you can only be offended if you choose to be

Freudian - with respect, I don't think you (or others) are necessarily getting my point, which is mostly semantics.

If I can ask a question, why would a family member be 'offended' by use of the word 'Paki'? I'm not saying that usage of 'Paki' doesn't incite a whole range of emotions, I'm asking why the intended target would choose to use the word 'offended' in particular? It doesn't address anything outside the subjective experience and, as such, I think it lacks explanantory power. In the context you have outlined, I actually think the word 'offended' is woefully inadequate to teach ignorant people why they shouldn't use words like 'Paki'.

That's all I'm saying. Being 'offended' makes it 'all about you' (how can it not, it's part and parcel of the concept) and runs the risk of ignoring the real and more explanatory emotions/feelings/desires that are wrapped up in a rubbish catch-all term. It's like a verbal shortcut. If someone says 'I'm offended/that's offensive', the response (if you have no clue) is surely 'Why?' And then the person explains their position in a more objective fashion ('because it's a racial pejorative and illegal/discriminatory/whatever') which could just be said in the first place.

I hope I've explained my position more clearly. I am most certainly not someone who thinks PC has gone mad or anything. I just don't feel that we should be using the levels of 'offence' taken by individuals as a guide for creating a better society. Far better to go from more objective first priniciples, IMO.

I think your use of semantics and your game playing is bloody dangerous, Maid. You are using obfuscatory tactics to diminish something that is actually very important. Language defines what and who we are as a society, hence the current government's insidious little narrative with regard to workers/shirkers etc. Being offended is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable jumping off point and to diminish it by insisting people take another route is dangerous.

Most people havent got your brains Maid. Have you thought about that?

Thanks for the dismissal of my point as 'game playing'

Now, I could say I'm offended, but that's meaningless. So I'll say that I find such a dismissal to be without foundation and disappointing.

Rather ironically, I am trying to encourage a move away from obfuscation into more direct and explanatory speech.

Maid. With respect, 99% of people cannot manage to articulate themselves like this. Let alone even think about it.

A person saying that they are offended is not meaningless.

You have much wider intellect, and thought patterns and feelings and time to study your feelings etc.

It is way beyond the scope of most people, even mumsnetters!

settingsitting That's not my opinion from the quality of posts I see on this website

A person saying that they are offended is not meaningless

OK, I will retract the premise that it is meaningless. That does appear dismissive of me.

I will substitute for 'lacks explanatory power'.

Maid Apologies, I didn't intend to wound, by game playing I did not mean in a clever, one upmanship manner, I meant playing with words, because I felt that that is what you are doing.
I do not think you are moving away from obfuscation, crap analogy - if people have to take a longer route, they stop going. You are requesting that people be more specific (I have AS, I love specifics) but language has evolved and offensive is a useful shorthand for someone who may not have the necessary vocabulary.
As for the emotions argument, then I believe that too has a place, it does hurt my dds feelings when she is called a spaz and a retard and she has every right to state that she finds it offensive. She fights in other ways too, as witnessed by many on here, with alarming regularity.

agree with dawndonna.

And you have a very big job on your hands if you want to change the vocab of the average mumsnetter, to get them to use more descriptive words!

because Maid some of my family have had years and years of abusive and been shouted down. Older members of my family feel grateful for being here and this abuse is just something that the felt they have had to live with. Growing up always being inferior in society (not how they may have felt themselves) has not even allowed them to express how they feel to be able to express that they are offended is empowering and if that is a whine to some who cba to see things from their point of view well let the whine all they like

why should they have teach others what they are doing is wrong, they already know that but now being able to say well hang on I do not like that it offends me is a huge step forward they are able to stand up in their own way and not walk away feeling like once again they have been bullied, feel crap about themselves as they have spoken out which for many people is enough

it is all very well for Stephen Fry to suggest that people should stop whining and 'so fucking what' to the response of being offended but he comes from a place of privilege middle class highly educated white male

I know what you are saying Maid and I do agree with you. I do also think, as some earlier posters said, that it can often be used to try to stop a very valid conversation/questioning of certain behaviour.

Oh yes, it can be used to stop conversations.
But people often have limited vocabulary.

I'm not really glad that people are more offended these days

I don't think people are more offended. I think there are more things that people are prepared to express their offense about and IMO that's an indicator that attitudes are changing.

My OP was about seeing the change in what people find offensive as an indicator of positive change but, having thought about it some more, I realise that it isn't just a symptom.

People's expressions of offence can support change too. The language people use affects their understanding. By expressing offense you can sometimes change the language someone uses and therefore their thoughts about the subject.

I think it's fine to use verbal shortcuts to express the view that someone's language is socially unacceptable. Many people who use racist language know exactly why that language is seen as unacceptable and how it can affect various people. They use it to try to perpetuate attitudes that marginalise certain groups. An expression of offense doesn't need to be explained for everyone to understand that the intention is to challenge that marginalisation.

I agree about the 'spaz,' 'retard' thing....and 'Joey' as well (after Joey Deacon) I don't think that would happen in schools now.

You've obviously never heard any of the Madeline McCann jokes or any of the other ones that can be found on sites like Sikipedia.

I've got a broad & dark sense of humour but all of them were nasty & not funny. I wouldn't say they "offended" me though....

(I volunteer with teenagers & you tend to hear a lot of them second hand - I don't frequent such sites!)

Offended implies a level of personal relevance or involvement that I don't have for most things...

I can articulate my feelings.

And am also offended on occasion.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

In fact it's quite patronising to imply that Maid must be understanding of the poor offended posters who aren't as intelligent as her.

I find it a bit grim that there would actually be a thread on which people would argue for being offensive tbh.