to be glad that people find more things offensive these days?

[Goldmandra]

This is inspired by a comment on another thread which implied that this is a bad thing.

Isn't it better that jokes about mental health, immigration, rape, etc, are seen as less socially acceptable than they used to be. I think it's a sign that our society is changing in a positive way.

Or is it PC gone mad?

[settingsitting]

Ah, ok bumbleymummy. My mistake.

[Chachah]

I also find the word "offensive" a little meaningless, it's a bit of a catch-all, non-specific slap on the hand. And I also find it strange that it implies that someone, somewhere is offended - surely if someone is being racist or sexist or disablist, they are being so, and are in the wrong, regardless of whether or not they are causing offense to someone?

In fact I'm struggling to think of an equivalent word in my language, I don't think there is one. But then we're a pretty sexist and racist bunch :-/

[bumbleymummy]

Eh? I was asking Seven a question. I wasn't talking about Maid's point.

[settingsitting]

Seven has got the point.

[settingsitting]

That is not Maid's point bumbleymummy.

[SevenZarkSeven]

I mean this:

"Are you saying that you think only one in ten people would respond to, say, a racial pejorative with "That's unacceptable to the vast majority of the population and makes you look like a bigoted twat" (or similar), while the remaining nine out of ten would only be able to manage "That's offensive"?"

Well. Um.

You're on a tube and someone uses a racial insult to someone else. The vast majority of people IRL (if they feel in a position to say anything) will say something like "oi that's really offensive" "you can't say that" "you should apologise" or similar.

Most normal people will not front up with "That's unacceptable to the vast majority of the population and makes you look like a bigoted twat" because that is not actually how normal people speak. The first part is terribly long winded and the second will get you a slap.

[bumbleymummy]

"some people are using the word about things that others feel they should not be getting upset / angry / offended about."

Who can judge whether someone is right to be upset/angry/offended at something?

[SevenZarkSeven]

This thread is bizarre.

The words offended and offensive are words which have been in the language for ages and are widely understood, and merrily defined in the dictionary.

The suggestion that people should stop using them because some people on the thread think other words are better is ridiculous!

Replacing one perfectly good word by using 4 or 5 others instead is a weird suggestion.

And the actual problem is that some people think that other people are getting offended (or upset and angry and taken aback and shocked and so on) by things that are frivolous. Changing the words used won't mean that the people magically start agreeing with each other.

The idea that it is attached to individual emotion and so a weak thing t say is odd as well.

Firstly there is nothing wrong with expressing an emotion. That makes me feel angry / that makes me feel upset / that makes me feel offended. All reasonable things to say.

Similarly, it can be used in a wider sense. The majority of people find that offensive / the majority of people are angered by that / the majority of people are saddened etc.

The problem is not with the word, it is that some people are using the word about things that others feel they should not be getting upset / angry / offended about. A different word used will not stop that difference of opinion.

Weird thread really.

[settingsitting]

I categorically do not have a low intellect.

I dont think for a minute that you do Fanjo.

[bumbleymummy]

What happens in a situation where someone is 'offended' because you are piercing your child's ears/circumcising your son and you are 'offended' by their criticism of your religious/cultural beliefs. How does either of you saying that you are 'offended' further the discussion and whose feelings are more important? I think most people choose to ignore when some else is offended if they feel that their opinion is correct. So, if saying that you are 'offended' won't necessarily stop someone from expressing their opinion then surely it isn't a good enough word?

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Maid. You haven't said that but others have said that several times.

[MaidOfStars]

I sincerely hope that none of my comments here have been processed as an insult to the intellectuality of others .

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

I find it remarkably insulting to imply that the oi polloi of MN just can't understand maid because they don't understand her.

It is possible to disagree with someone while understanding then perfectly.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Despite ability to feel offence.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

"Something like that MaidOfStars.
I find that intellectual people have a more positive expectation of others' intellect than is actually the case."

I categorically do not have a low intellect.

[MaidOfStars]

About how he doesn't give a stuff if someone is offended and it shouldn't change people's behaviour?

I've typically taken this to mean that he doesn't feel the premise of "being offended" is sufficient to dictate a change in people's behaviour. You need more solid reasons to argue for change.

However, I have more recently read the opinion that actually, he was indeed very naive and was arguing for privilege in some contexts, and the right to divvy out deliberately provocative shit in others.

[almondcakes]

It is the same with anger. People feel anger. People can say quiet calmly that they feel angry. Acting in an angry manner is a matter of self control.

I am not responsible for somebody else's angry behaviour. I am responsible for treating people fairly.

[settingsitting]

Something like that MaidOfStars.
I find that intellectual people have a more positive expectation of others' intellect than is actually the case.

Even mumsnet is quite distorted to rl in this respect.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Well..for example.

This happened.

I am at work. I have child with a severe learning disability.

Colleague in next room starts laughing about the "undateables" and calling it hilarious entertainment to laugh at the participants. And saying she looks "special" in her work shoes.

Oh I was definitely offended. It was a feeling and not a political or philosophical stance. And I couldn't switch it off.

[DadOnIce]

Stephen Fry did that famous speech about being "offended", didn't he? About how he doesn't give a stuff if someone is offended and it shouldn't change people's behaviour? I thought that was a little naive of him. If someone called him a "fucking queer" or similar homophobic insult, he'd have every right to be offended by it, after all, and I'd expect he would be. Different people having different levels of offended-ness.

It's cultural, too - e.g. in some parts of France, it will cause far more raised eyebrows if you say "nom de Dieu" (in the name of God) than if you say "putain de merde" or something similar.

[MaidOfStars]

settingsitting What you talk about only really applies to 10% of the population. What about the other 90%?

Are you saying that you think only one in ten people would respond to, say, a racial pejorative with "That's unacceptable to the vast majority of the population and makes you look like a bigoted twat" (or similar), while the remaining nine out of ten would only be able to manage "That's offensive"?

[settingsitting]

If you can choose to not be offended then you arent. Its not something you choose

I disagree too.
Sometimes it has a lot more to do with self control.

[settingsitting]

Being offended is the same. It changes nothing and doesn't make you better able to improve the situation.

Possibly. Will have a think about that.

But on a forum, posting about it is doing something sometimes.

[MaidOfStars]

If you can choose to not be offended then you arent. Its not something you choose

Disagree.

You cannot (usually) choose whether something inspires anger, or sadness, or hurt, or a sense of unfairness, at least in the immediate aftermath. You can choose to process those feelings into "being offended". "Being offended" is not, in my opinion, an emotion, it is a philosophical or political position and one which explains very little

[settingsitting]

Don't be offended, get angry and do something to make change happen.

What are you doing? And about what?