to want to choose area / house size over secondary school?

[stilllovingmysleep]

Fact: we have a specific budget, a child who is nowhere near secondary so far (about to start year 2) & are thinking of relocating in a nearby area (we have some other options) that we like & can afford. For the amount we can afford, we can buy an OK 3 bedroom house in a number of areas. However, they either don't have secondaries at all or they're 'needing improvement'.

For the same amount of money, we would most likely be able to get a 2 bedroom flat in the areas where there are some better secondaries.

AIBU to want to ignore the issue, choose the area we like & can afford, get more space for our money, and put my head in the sand a bit for secondary in the hope that the 'requires improvement' school/s might improve within the next 5 years? Or that other options might possibly become available within the years, and in the meantime we'll have more space & thus enjoy our home life more?

(Not sure if this should have gone to WWYD thread rather than AIBU but here goes)

I would keep renting for now then buy whatever you can afford in an area with good schools.

Speaking as someone who went to an awful school.

I disagree minifingers

I would say that it is part of the bigger picture and cannot be taken alone, (but there's not enough time here for me to list the ALPS data for each school, and quite frankly it would be boring)

However, I would not say that it is irrelevant as you claim. It is widely recognised that after the mother's level of education, socioeconomics play one of the most significant factors in how children do at school. This is exemplified in the 2010 Rowntree report which highlights how low attainment affects classroom dynamics, pupil achievement etc etc. the effects are huge.

So whilst it does need to be read in terms of the bigger picture, and you can't automatically say a school is better because it has higher results (could be down to intake), there is an awful lot of research out there (like the Rowntree report) which shows the achievement of a school in general does have a significant impact on how well children tend to do individually.

It is not irrelevant as you claim!

Lechers - I agree though, that children need schools which 'add value'.

A school can be quite low in the league tables but still very effective at raising attainment.

Totally agree with that, and think that both need to be considered. Although I'm also mindful that it is harder to 'add value' to a student who is predicted an A.

Hence, I think it all needs to be considered as part of the bigger picture and why none of it is irrelevant.

Been a while since I was at school, but I'd be inclined to go for a house. School is just one part of education: as long as the child gets GCSE grades sufficient to get into college, the rest is less important.

I went to a dreadful school which placed no value on education beyond age 16 (why bother when the kids are just going to end up in factories, was the attitude). Luckily my mother was a good influence going to night school herself. I'm a doc now.

I think you do have to consider schools even if your child is a lot younger than secondary school age. But on the other hand things can change in the intervening years.

Go for a house over a flat.

Schools can change so rapidly and change over time in general. E.g DS1 8, started at his school when it was graded Satisfactory, a year later it was graded Good. Now it is in Special Measures. But it will be good again. He is working ahead in all areas.

The secondary school has gone 3, 4, 2 and is graded outstanding for its management and one if it's departments. On for an outstanding on it's next inspection.

I would go for the house not the school..schools are under a lot.of pressure to improve, they simply have to and by the time your dc is old enough it will be better I am sure.

Hi, take it from one who knows, there are simply no guarantees anymore of getting into a catchment school, it's a preference and from recent experience it can cause a lot of heartache if you set your sights on a particular school and don't get in.
Your housing situation at the moment is more important.
Things change over time, always go with your gut instinct, it's rarely wrong:)

Go with the housing, not the school.

Schools can turn around in less time than 5 years, and having space at home is really important. Living on top of each other in a small place can cause otherwise minor niggles to escalate. And you spend more time at home than in work or at school.

Look at the history of the schools (past ofsted reports available on their website - if the school has become abn academy, predecessor schools are also there but will be listed as 'closed').

If the school has ALWAYS bee satisfactory or below, the odds are tyhat it will stay exactly the same for the next 5 years.

If its Ofsted grade has varied - ie has had goods / outstandings in the past, now in RI, then there is MUCH more change of it chaning back to something more positive.

'Continuingly underpeforming' schools often have structural issues that affect their results - for example demographics of the intake, long term negative parental opinion / involvement, 11+ locally that makes them effectively secobndary moderns. Such schools often srtruggle to attract excellent staff (working exceptionally hard with little chanceof success is not everyone's first choice!), have fluctuating numbers affecting their budgets etc.

'Temporarily underperforming' schools will have faced much less intractable problems - maybe a piorr intake, a period of instability, loss of a head - and thus often turn round. 5 years + is an appropriate timeframe for that, though: a poorly performing primary can turn round within a year, but secondaries are bigger ships to redirect.

Ideally, whatever you choose, you'll be well settled a few years before DC go to secondary school. Switching from primary to secondary is much easier when you're going there with friends. Have a think about the primary school initially and if the majority go on to the local secondary. I value the fact that my children's friends are all part of the local community.

There are far too many variables to take into account to base your choice of house now on a nearby secondary school for the future.

"Switching from primary to secondary is much easier when you're going there with friends. Have a think about the primary school initially and if the majority go on to the local secondary."

This is lovely and it's what we'd all like, I'm sure, I'd hoped for that outcome. But what about a child who is bullied in the later years of primary school and the bullies are all going to the secondary that you'd chosen to live near?

In 5 years' time, you or your partner could have more dc or split up or both, one or both of you could have a dream job offered which would involve relocation. Your financial circumstances could change dramatically either way. The school could go rapidly downhill. Your dc could win a scholarship to a different school.

I'd advise you to base your decision on giving your dc and yourselves a happy family home. Most families tend to employ tutors during secondary education at least in the couple of years leading up to GCSE's and earlier if their dc is weak in any core subjects.

"Most families tend to employ tutors during secondary education at least in the couple of years leading up to GCSE's and earlier if their dc is weak in any core subjects."

That may be normal where you live.... I know of no-one locally (excellent state comp) who does that, and although I am oprepared to beleve that a small minority do so, I have no evidence to suggest that it is 'most families'.

DD1 is 16 during her 5years at secondary, Ofsted has said
Good with outstanding features
Satisfactory
Special Measures
Good

Ie. Buy a house you like, in an area you like and as big as you can afford.

I don't think I'd choose on Ofsted alone but I'd really not be happy to consciously move into an area where schools are bad if I had a school aged child. Where we used to live the two local secondary schools had been in and out of special measures for years. I would not have sent my children to either, and it was one of the reasons we moved away.

All the parents we knew who had older children did their utmost to try and send their children to other schools, and the children from the schools were held to be disruptive and very difficult in the local community. That the two next nearest schools were consistently rated outstanding with tiny catchments was I suspect a part of the problem, as was the number of faith secondaries (as it happens we would not have wanted our children there either) as it effectively mean that the 'bad' schools were sink schools.

On the other hand the primary they attended was not well regarded, but we chose it deliberately because it had a unit for behaviorally challenged children and ds had some difficulties when he was small.

So I say do some more research to understand why the schools are underperforming, whether it is a persistent problem and if there are specific issues that are more or less likely to be a concern for your family.

As an example some schools can have an issue with bullying of children who are seen to be trying hard, or manage disruptive children very badly. Both issues are likely to impact your child however much support you give at home.

Area, every time.
5 years is not as long as it seems. I know of people who have looked to move into catchment for good schools at the beginning of year 5 and not been able to pull it off. I think you are very wise to plan now. Moving to an area with historically good schools is sensible. Moving out of an area with historically bad schools now will avoid the stress you will encounter in a couple of years time.
While I agree that 'requires improvement' schools can improve there are many that have been stuck in this category for a long time. It can take years to turn a school around. These schools could also get worse - yes there is pressure for schools to improve but if they do not make it they end up in special measures, become academies etc etc. which means the future is uncertain.
I would move house and sacrifice space for a consistently good secondary school. If the area has more than one good secondary then even better. Such an area is also an investment in terms of property, the value is somewhat protected by the desirability of the schools.

"That may be normal where you live"

It is To clarify,

*Where I live, most families tend to employ tutors during State secondary education at least in the couple of years leading up to GCSE's and earlier if their dc is weak in any core subjects."

I know this from seeing it happen and from speaking to parents who employed tutors.

Can you expand on the areas that "have no secondaries at all"? And are you 100% certain you won't be having any more children? Both these would factor in my decision I think.

I'm getting quite discouraged reading this thread... In a way, there's no easy answer. All your points are very useful. But it essentially comes down to money, and the hard reality is that London prices have become just so high that a lot of ordinary options e.g. a good enough local school and a good enough home are out of reacth for a larger & larger number of families...

Erin99, we might have another (not clear but might become clear in the next months) so that's an added complication which I'm choosing to ignore la la la la laaaaaaaaaaaaaa (head in sand).

I suppose another option to be to use our money to be a tiny flat of good quality in an area with good schools, rent it out, and rent something slightly bigger where we currently live (near our DS's primary); later sell, and go from there. Too complicated, it feels, but an option.

My area has secondaries which are consistently rated 'good' or 'outstanding'.

People still move because they want their child to go to a school with fewer poor and ethnic minority children.

I suspect that often when people say 'good school' they mean 'school with lots of middle-class children and strong GCSE results', neither of course which actually means 'good school'.

stillloving I think that you just need to do more research, so look at the histories of the schools, the options in the areas without local secondaries etc. In London one thing to check is the movement in house prices as an improving area might be more likely to have improving schools too, and also be a much better bet for you, both for staying or for moving on later. Look also at what selection criteria are in place for more distant schools so you can see what options you are likely to have.

It is all a bit shit really, one reason why we left London for an area where all the schools were similarly good, and pretty much everyone sends their children to the local one. Education angst is very stressful!

We've just done this: we're moving (fingers crossed) next month to a great house in a lovely area with plenty of space for our 3 children. The two eldest are at a brilliant, very over subscribed local primary (we're only moving a couple of miles from where we live now) BUT the two nearest secondary are average. The excellent secondary that two years ago we'd have had no problem getting the DCs into has just had a large, posh estate built on its doorstep which has resulted in the catchment area being halved. Yay. There's no way we could have afforded a decent sized (3 bed, not mansion) nearer to this school and personally, I think living in a much smaller house would be more stressful and detrimental to our family in the long run. I've highlighted 'personally' as I know that lots of people live in much smaller houses with the same amount of children but ours are very lively and loud. Our current house is quite small and is only going to get smaller as the DCs get bigger, iyswim. The best choice for our family is more living space 24/7 than the best school. Like a pp said about her SIL, we will be working hard with our children to achieve their highest potential, and, if appropriate, we'll look into the possibility of grammar schools but they're a bit young yet for that sort of decision.

Hope that all makes sense! Am aware I've waffled a lot!