To think these BTEC courses are not suitable for a law degree and that the college is giving bad advice

[DaisyPig]

BTEC Health and Social Care and BTEC Public Services?

A bit of background - my daughter is 17 and has wanted to go to university to study law since she was in year 8. She has always been very bright, was always in the top sets at school, etc unfortunately during her last two years at school she was very ill and spent most of it in hospital which made her miss a lot of school work. Because of this she only just managed to get 4 GCSE's A*-C - her teachers did say however that if she hadn't missed so much school she could have easily got the full set of 11 GCSE's which she took. She was still exhausted after her illness though and we all felt that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to send her straight to college or anything like that as she was still pretty much in and out of hospital for further tests and we didn't want to disrupt her education any further.

She has still always talked about wanting to go to university though and she has decided that she would like to go to college this September. She knew that her four GCSE's wouldn't be good enough to do A Levels so she wants to re-sit the ones she failed this year and then do A Levels next year.

However when we went along to an open day at the college last week they agreed that she doesn't meet the entry requirements for A Levels but they told us that because "of her age" she wouldn't be able to re-sit GCSE's this year to do A Levels next year. They said it was because next year she would be 18 thus "too old to start A Levels"

They then brought someone else over who then started talking about alternative routes and she went through a prospectus with us and recommended that my daughter did either a BTEC Public Services or a BTEC Health and Social Care to start in September. We were both a bit confused about this and the next conversation went something like this:

Me: She wants to do law at university, I'm not sure those courses would be suitable.
Advisor: Those courses are fine for uni, lots of BTEC students go to uni afterwards.
Me: But like I said, she wants to do law, would those be suitable for that?
Advisor: She could apply for any course she wants to once she's finished.

Well I'm not sure about the "any course" point and I could understand maybe a public services student going to university to study law afterwards, but health and social care? Really? .

After talking to someone else about the public services BTEC who explained a bit more about the course, my daughter hated the sound of it and felt it wasn't for her. He explained that it was mostly an outdoors based course and there were a lot of trips which wouldn't suit my daughter or her style of learning at all. He also said that they've been running the course for five years now and although a couple go to university afterwards (and usually to study criminology) most go straight into work. She felt it wouldn't prepare her for the academic side of a law degree at all.

My daughter is now upset and is looking at colleges further away but AIBU to think that neither of those courses (especially health and social care) would suit my daughter or be the best to go for a law degree afterwards? Or am I just crazy?

I got onto a law degree with a btec national diploma in business and finance. 15 years ago though.

But I guess its not impossible.

You need to talk to some unis and check out UCAS points, etc.

Yanbu. She should resit gcses. Good luck to your dd

What gcses did she get?

OP, if you want to PM me I can describe a similar situation and how it worked out for you. Don't want to post the details here.

Depends if she wants to study Law or she wants to go on and be a Lawyer? DS2 did a BTECH in Uniformed and Public Services with a view to joining the police. He changed his mind and decided to apply to Uni. I told him he wouldn't get in. He got 5 offers and has just finished second year at Leeds Met. Don't think his qualifications will be good enough to get a training contract though - you need top flight GCSEs as well as a First or at the very least a good 2.1/ Luckily he still wants to join the police.

Law lecturer here. Access has widened but we still need students with the correct background to enable them to study a degree in law. Sorry stripeyhoglets I know its become very right on to move away from tradition but that is best demonstrated by the art of passing exams in difficult and relevant subjects. Its actually become far, far easier to get into study law than in the past but it still requires a certain kind of mind to get through the degree. And if you think its snobbish, you almost certainly don't know any court solicitors!

FWIW I think the college were talking nonsense and not listening to what you were saying. I actually had a similar thing happen to me at my school when making A Level choices, with the Careers Advisor. You had to pick a category of jobs to aim for, based on your prelim results at O Level. I had all "A"s and was ambitious and wanted a well paid job, so picked the highest level. The careers advisor was aghast, and tried to persuade me to pick from the third highest level, pointing out that librarianship might suit me. Despite my expressing no interest in it. We then had a rather comical semi-argument, my 16 year old self refusing to back down and admit she was right. She was of course talking nonsense, and its often puzzled and amused me in equal measure as I remembered that day, as I got into uni to study Law, then qualified as a solicitor, became reasonably senior, then moved into academia.

Adults do GCSEs all the time. She might be better going to an adult education college which offers more mainstream subjects, rather than fitting into someone else's quota. Some universities do ask for passes at one sitting, but there are certainly universities out there offering law degrees who don't.

Be aware that there are law degrees and law degrees offering the LLB. The former will not enable your daughter to be a lawyer but may be a good general business degree.

My best advice, the advice I would give you if you came here to an open morning would begin with a couple of questions:

Did she get maths and English at C or above?
What kind of lawyer does she want to be?

Then, advice:
if she hasn't got maths and English at C or above, she won't start A levels anywhere (no funding), she must achieve those GCSEs first. Even if you paid for her A levels, her next step would still require them.

She can start A levels for free as long as she is not 19 on the first day of term and has not completed a level 3 course already.

She needs to choose 3 or 4 GCSEs to resit, not a whole heap of them (I would have advised not to sit 11 the first time if she had been off ill, imo the school let her down by not insisting she reduced her workload and succeeded well in fewer).

To choose the right GCSEs and A levels she needs to look at individual university entry requirements and see if there are any popular ones. Law usually just asks for a range, but things are changing so do check.

When she chooses A levels do not do law. I too have heard from many students who have been interviewed that this is not a good idea. Just choose 3 that she thinks she will enjoy and do well in, plus one for the first year only, that gives her some wriggle room into the 2nd year.

BTECs would be fine, but not Pub Servs if she is not outdoorsy. health and Soc Care would be an odd one to try to take forward to law, but not wholly impossible.

MOST IMPORTANTLY look at lots of different law courses and see just how many different pathways there are. If she is well armed with this knowledge she can work towards specific goals without worrying about the what ifs...

www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/undergraduate

Good luck.

I don't understand why she can't go straight on to A levels.

Well that is rubbish, I know that our local college GCSEs for adults and A Levels. Look at the adult education prospectus and see what GCSEs they offer.

Definitely nbu. Hate to say it though but she really needs more GCSEs(BTEC/NVQ might be equivalent but they need to be well taught and monitored) then a couple of A levels for Law at uni. Law is very competitive and I'd be wary of any degree course which would accept just 4 GCSEs and/or BTECs. While in her case there may be a good reason , in others they may only just have scraped in. Those BTECs mentioned are all about getting bums on seats and funding, were they even level 2 ? She is definitely not too old for A levels and I think would be funded for another GCSE to get her full L2. Find alternative colleges or FE.

Which GCSEs did she get? She really needs to have her Maths and English. If she has these then she should go back to the college or look for another one in the area and explain your situation and ask to do A Levels.

I teach in an FE college and I've had students who have been allowed to do A levels without the required number of GCSEs if they have special circumstances that prevented them from achieving originally. I have also taught a student who was in this situation who went on to study law at a very good university. He wasn't allowed to study the the exact A levels he wanted in his first year and so took three years to build up the required number of points in good enough subjects (eg English Lit and not Media Studies). He also had to contact the unis he applied to as well as write to them separately from his UCAS application and explain the reasons behind his GCSE results.

It is possible but your daughter needs to follow a traditional path and be very focussed on what she wants.

If she wants to do law then she really needs to get the full compliment of GCSEs and then a-levels.

Has she talked to anyone who is actually in the law profession? It's not easy at the moment.

I'm a solicitor. I know we wouldn't look at anyone without at least 10 GCSEs at Grades A*-B and 4 or 5 A's at A-Level. I wouldn't recommend studying law without those grades as you'll struggle to find a job. There are plenty of other routes such as becoming a legal exec. Even paralegals these days have first class degrees from Oxbridge to get through the door. This is a large firm but even smaller high street firms have these kind of requirements. I can't express just how competitive it is.

I suggest going back and resorting GCSE's and then taking A-Levels. Or looking into the Legal Exec route. Most law firms will also want to know that the grades were secured at the first sitting so re-sat grades aren't going to resolve the issue.

I teach BTECs - that is terrible advice!

Regarding the age thing with the college - is it a sixth form college as opposed to a traditional FE college - there are age restrictions on sixth forms in school so could be the same if it is a sixth form college. It shouldn't be a problem at an FE college - although you may have to pay (which I think is the age issue).

OP never actually said that her DD wanted to work in the legal profession merely that she wanted to study law at university. I know two people with law degrees who aren't lawyers and never had any interest in becoming one. They studied law because they enjoyed it. One is now a social worker, the other works in public relations.

Bad advice.

I am a trainee solicitor at a big London firm - they are certainly quite obsessed with academics, for us the bare minimum is AAB and a high 2.1 (they don't seem to care so much about GCSEs). I also had an A level re-take which they didn't seem to care about. I think if you've got a valid reason for re-taking, like illness, they will look at that.

She may change her mind later about the law, but I would advise re-taking the relevant GCSEs and going on to do A levels in TRADITIONAL subjects e.g. English, History, a language and then trying to get into a good university (and by that I mean one that has some snob value. A lot of lawyers are picky about ex-polys but I know solicitors who attended those kinds of unis so it wouldn't be the end of the world).

Ah, the recent cuts to FE funding begin to strike!

Your daughter is definitely better off with A-levels than BTECs, especially the ones suggested. I advise that you look at university admissions requirements, and work backwards. If the short-list of subjects:
a) that look favourable to admissions tutors, and;
b) that your daughter thinks she could enjoy studying for two years are subjects

happily coincides with the GCSEs A*-C she has, she could maybe go straight on to doing A-levels. If they don't, she needs to do GCSEs this year.

Admissions tutors are actual people, not computers, and they can make adjustments for a candidate who meets their A-level requirements but has a non-standard number of GCSEs due to illness. They really can. However, if she needs to resit her GCSEs in order to do herself justice at A-level, then she should certainly do that!

I am entirely in agreement with Nomama about not taking too many GCSEs at once. Both that your daughter sat too many subjects originally, and that she should only choose three to four GCSEs to study this year. One-year GCSE courses are very intense.

Good luck to your daughter, and I wish her well.

Definitely take A Levels or IB (International Baccalaureate). Are there other schools/colleges nearby where you could make enquiries about getting into A level/IB courses? Perhaps your daughter wouldn't need to resit her GCSEs if she has extenuating circumstances...how did she do in her mock exams?

Another alternative...could she resit the GCSEs (just 5 of them to get to a total of 9) over the summer, before the A level courses begin? If she has top grades in the core subjects (English language, English literature, Maths, 3 Sciences) then she should be on a solid footing.

I would advise your daughter to choose traditional subjects including English at A level, and to get work experience at a solicitor/barrister/commercial law department in the summer between A levels, to give her the best chance at getting into a prestigious university course, which will then give her more career options post-degree. Remember that doing a law degree is no guarantee of employment in law.

Good luck to you both.

Have you considered CILEX?

You can become a qualified lawyer without A levels or a degree. You can also become a solicitor this way without having to do a training contract.

It also doesn't run up the huge student debt that the conventional route does.

Actually im surprised no one else has suggested the legal exec route.

Zerowatts, I know many court solicitors and I am not saying they are snobs, but it's a profession that is very difficult to get into these days and is a lot easier if you went to the right school or university or have contacts in the profession. If you don't have those, and haven't followed a route leading to traditional qualifications, it gets even harder. I also know there's are a lot of places available to study law now and only a small percentage of those will ever become qualified lawyers, tbh OP if your daughter just wants to study law then that's fine it's a good degree for many things, but if she actually wants to be a solicitor or barrister she needs look very carefully and realistically at the likelihood of that happening. There's is massive oversupply in the market graduates wanting training contracts.

the issue is that a levels are only funded for 16-19 year olds through the study programme. So if she starts at 19 the second year college won't be paid.

Seems rather unfair to me but v that's the EFA/ SFA for you.

and yanbu doing a random btec is pointless.

innogen75 what is CILEX? I've heard it mentioned before but still don't understand what it is. Can anyone do CILEX?

tobysmum

Slightly worse than that. The funding was changed this year. It used to be that colleges could claim full funding for 16-17 year olds in year 12, 17-18 year-olds in year 13, and 18-19 year-olds in year 14.

Funding for year 14's has now been cut, ultimately penalising students who need to repeat a year, thus taking them into year 14 at all, not just beyond. This affects those who need to retake, whether it's their GCSE year or an AS/A2 year.