To agree that charm is more useful than qualifications

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Inspired by India Knight's article today. I don't often agree with her views, but this one struck a chord with me.

I was shy and an academic high-flier as a child. The fact I was socially awkward to the point of appearing rude and humourless to adults is still impacting me negatively today. I strongly believe I would have had some very valuable headstarts up the career ladder and enjoyed much more fulfilling relationships had I been encouraged to be charming at school rather than focusing single-mindedly on getting all the qualifications I could.

I do think India is incorrect with one assumption though - she thinks all public schools teach charm and manners. Mine certainly didn't, and I think I was at a disadvantage for this - it wasn't until I was well into Uni that I realised that personality and sociability counted for a lot more in the wider world than book smarts.

It's one of the things I wish for my children, charm. Does get you what you want. Can it be taught though?

Not sure about charm per se (haven't read the article), but I was very middle of the pack at school but have done well career wise because I have good people and relationship management skills. I'm never the smartest person in the room, but I am often very powerful.

I know some perfectly arrogant ex public school children, and some charming state schoolers. As for qualifications, a charming doctor is nice, but given the choice between charm and qualifications, I'd rather they were qualified.

I think it can be taught up to a point - after that it is hoped it becomes more ingrained and natural.

I had to learn the niceties of "how are you" and small talk etc. and fake confidence with others in my 20s since I'd never practised them before. Gradually it became more natural.

By instilling this at a young age, I think it would become more natural earlier and helps build confidence in social situations.

I think it certainly helps.

I'm usually fairly confident that if I get to interview stage for a job that I will get it.

I know that's at best an outrageously confident thing to say but generally speaking, it has been true.

I haven't read the article, but do think there is some truth in what you're saying.

I was shy-but-academic growing up and have probably only overcome that since having DCs. DH definitely has the charisma/confidence/x-factor and has forged a much more successful career than I ever did, both on the basis of his professional reputation and ability to network, but from a less-successful academic starting point.

When it comes to raising our children, we are trying to raise them as fully-rounded individuals and keep the academic stuff within a wider context. There is much more to life than book bands and SATs.

I've not read the article, but your post certainly struck a chord with me. I wasn't exactly an academic high-achiever at school, but I did well and went on to Uni - mainly because it was what everyone else was doing and I had no idea what other options there were (I felt far too young/immature to get a job!) I went to an all-girls' independent school and it was all about academic achievement. We had no careers advice to speak of and you only got pushed if you were very clever, or the opposite.

As the years go by, I feel more and more that I wasted so much time studying and concentrating on good academic achievement when I would have benefitted far more from becoming a 'rounded', confident and socially capable person. I am sure personality plays a part in this, but I also think school did me no favours in making academic qualifications appear as the be-all and end-all. Through my working life I have met so many people who have achieved great things, yet would have been considered under-achievers at school (or certainly at my school!).

I went to a state school though. We certainly weren't taught it.

I wasn't a "pretty" kid (my delightful classmates to me often), so I focused my energy on my personality (well, after about age 16) and exams.

I don't have the most high flying life but I'm happy.

It's not more important than qualifications, unless she thinks she can charm her way into becoming a brain surgeon.

But charm certainly goes hand in hand and will probably give you the edge over someone equally as qualified, but totally charmless.

I think it's weird that she thinks schools should teach this, rather than parents/family though.

Not sure I agree.

School is a good time to get qualifications. Charm (well, people skills etc) can be learnt later and in a far less rigid environment.

I couldn't do my job without at least some of the knowledge I acquired through qualifications. Doing it is made easier and more successful by the people skills I've picked up on the way. The people stuff doesn't come naturally to me so I treat it like any other subject I need to learn and note things that work, things that don't, and practice a lot.

Well it depends on your field surely?!

Media- charm
Science - qualifications

I'm not that keen on charmers me-self...

Given the choice I would rather have a doctor with the correct qualifications than one without and oozing charm.

You could have both with a friend of mine Mamma. Actually most of the doctors I know are quite charming, bedside manner innit.

Why is it either/or?

It does seem to be either/or to me because of my personal experiences at school where academic achievement was the only goal, so I am wondering if other MNers experienced the same.

Now experiencing DCs at school, I don't see much improvement. I of course am bringing them up to speak to their peers and adults in as winningly a way as possible, but not all families will be doing the same. This is why I think it's important that schools should be giving children practical examples of social etiquette and conversational skills more thoroughly than the current crap PSHRE programme.

True 'charm' cannot be learned in my opinion.
Social niceties and how to make small talk and a good impression in social situations can be taught.
I don't see them as the same thing.
I'm not a charmer. Quite a shy and easily embarrassed person actually. But I can go into a group of people almost anywhere and hold my own and come away having made a good impression. Some of this is down to the school I went to. Some of it down to family.

DS1 is quite clever and quite gormless but also very winning and charming - he is not all that confident but he isn't self-conscious.

DD is a bit cleverer and not at all gormless but can be shy and self-conscious to the point of standoffishness.

DS1 sails through life - people can't do enough for him. DD luckily is too organised to need people to do anything for her, just as well as although she is a lovely girl, the charm isn't as apparent as it is with DS1.

Charm certainly does help make a smoother path through life imo. A bit of patter,a great smile can ease difficult situations and make boring ones more enjoyable.

I've always enjoyed job interviews and hoped that I could 'charm' my way through any problems......

However, qualifications are needed to get you to that interview stage are they not?
No one can see your charm through a CV or application form. They are your pathway through.

Not all of us are as lucky as say Richard Branson. We need all the help we can get.
Although if you are lucky enough to have both....

The world is your bloody oyster

I think authenticity and sincerity are equally as important as oozing charm. That includes warmth, the ability to engage with people at their level, connecting with things they want to talk about. Some of it comes from personality but some of it is self-awareness.

Pure charm on its own can be a thin veneer which easily crumbles after a while.

To me, charm is all about making the other person feel flattered and valued. So it's about giving attention to them, listening and responding positively.

I think part of that can be taught and part of that can be innate. But there are definitely lots of people out there who don't recognise it as necessary in social niceties because they never understood its role & value in relationships - I was one of them! Now I do, I wish school had been there to show me.

Unless you are Richard Branson level charming and well-connected, charm will not make you your fortune. You might get to snog a few extra girls at the disco, but in general, poorly-qualified people who are charming don't have as many options.

Now, if you have connections, and are reasonably but not off-puttingly bright, then charm might indeed be a factor. I have worked with several people who are both extremely clever and rather charming, though, I'm not sure the two are inversely related.

Finally, all the charm in the world is useless if you aren't a bit ruthless. I am not, and being on the nice-charming side, can be a disadvantage. It can make lots of people like you, but not get you to the top. If you don't care, this doesn't matter, but that also means you can end up working very hard for less money than more ruthless, less charming people.

yes I'd happily let somebody perform surgery on me as long as they are charming

Decent manners and a good level of qualifications with some job skills - much better than 'charm' whatever the fuck that is

gordy I agree about manners. I meet lots of students, very very few are charming, too young and not confident enough, but the ones that stand out to me are those who are genuine and have nice manners. I wrote a reference for someone recently, she got the job and wrote to me thanking me for my help in a lovely enthusiastic manner. Naturally, I'm keen to help out again.

I teach mine to always look someone in the eye when you say 'thank you', no need to do it, but mumbled 'fanku' isn't enough in this house.

Mine do talk too much though and don't always listen to the other person, I am having to work on their Lucy-ness my own is a lifelong challenge

Charm is helpful, but fundamentally if I'm having brain surgery or being flown across the Atlantic I'm more interested in the qualifications of the responsible professional than in how charming they are.

So. Many. Surgery. Analogies.

I should clarify. I mean your own charm is useful to yourself and your own prospects/relationships/happiness, rather than useful to other people.