To think that you should be able to use the old CofE vows (without the God bits) in a civil wedding ceremony? Ideas on vows VERY welcome.

[Mitchell50]

I'm getting married at the end of September and due to (unsurprisingly) the division of church and state when it comes to civil marriages it turns out you can't use the 'richer for poorer...bla bla' vows in a civil ceremony - this is what the registrar has told us anyway. Is the registrar just being a unimaginative meany or are the wedding police going to parachute into my ceremony at the slightest mention of 'in sickness and in health?'

I think those vows are simple and pretty and I would like to adapt them to suit a civil service and remove the 'god' references to keep the registrar happy...

Thoughts on other vows very welcome though!

I thought you could use any vows you want?

YANBU

You really can't. You also can't have any religious music playing or religious readings (so be careful esp with the music as lots of classical music is religious) Make sure you liase with registrar so no complications on day.

You can make any vows you like to your partner in front of as many witnesses as you choose.
What difference does it make is there is a registrar present?

They're the CoE vows. Even if you remove the God bit, we know perfectly well where they're from.

You're not independently developing those lines in a cultural vacuum; they are meaningful to you because they have been used at CoE wedding services for generations. They are indisputably part of a religious ceremony.

Get a thesaurus and some books of poetry and write your own.

Oh, and OP, have a google for humanist wedding vows.

YANBU that angers me actually.

EDIT: not CoE. Christian. RC church uses them too.

'You're not independently developing those lines in a cultural vacuum'

Noted, but they don't fall under any kind of copyright restrictions so surely anyone should be able to use some of the wording. Perhaps the CofE should be content that given their dwindling audiences, many people still sympathise with some of their sentiments? Surely they would support some use of the values outlined in the vows rather than complete censorship unless you are happy to use them in their entirety...

I presume it was some sort of concession to the church when civil ceremonies were set up in the first place.

I'm sure we did the richer, poorer, better, worse bit. (Is it awful that I can't remember??) it was 16 years ago though and we had a church blessing the next day so I wasn't trying to put anything religious in it.

'EDIT: not CoE. Christian. RC church uses them too.'

Quite right

It's the law, though, not the doing of the CoE - no religious stuff in a civil ceremony, even classical music without words that is deemed to be "religious".

just take the sentiment and write your own very similar but not close enough to be called plaugerising vows.
These rules came in when civil marriages came in, to keep the church happy i expect.

I hate this about civil ceremonies. Why can't you have whatever you want?!

Noted, but they don't fall under any kind of copyright restrictions so surely anyone should be able to use some of the wording. Perhaps the CofE should be content that given their dwindling audiences, many people still sympathise with some of their sentiments? Surely they would support some use of the values outlined in the vows rather than complete censorship unless you are happy to use them in their entirety...

They fall under legal restrictions. Not copyright laws, but there are evidently legal restrictions beyond copyright laws.

No, I wouldn't expect any religious personage to be happy with the idea that you want to pick and choose the nice fluffy bits of their religious rites without following the rest. Especially when you're not even trying to get married in a church and thus fund the maintenance of church buildings with your fees.

So a religious institution should be able to take legal action against individuals for any use of material which they deem to encompass similar wording to traditional vows which date back to at least the 1500's?

Why would legal action be necessary?

The registrar, whom you term an "imaginative meanie", knows the rules of how to perform a legally valid marriage ceremony under the law, and will simply decline to perform the ceremony until you come back with some proper vows.

No need for legal action or any "wedding police" to "parachute in".

*unimaginative meanie, sorry.

I hate this about civil ceremonies. Why can't you have whatever you want?!

Because it undermines the solemn process of the legal binding of two people.

And before anyone kicks up, I use exactly the reverse argument for why non-religious people shouldn't have church weddings - because it undermines the spiritual process of the holy binding of two people.

If you want to use church vows, then, quite simply: have a religious ceremony".

It's not really rocket science, is it? If you don't want a religious ceremony, why complain that you can't use church vows?

The law separates civil and religious ceremonies for a variety of reasons, if you want God in your ceremony (even in the music) then it is a religious ceremony, and as such has different legal requirements.

It's hardly rocket science. A civil ceremony is a religion-free ceremony.

I hate this about civil ceremonies. Why can't you have whatever you want?!

Well that makes no sense. If you want religious vows surely you get married in church.

We had a civil ceremony and were given a sheet with the vows written on them, which was what we said on the day. We had a choice to write our own, we chose not to.

You can't have anything religious in a civil ceremony, this includes music and readings and the registrar will look at your choices first.

You can outline the same sentiments in your own words, and that can be a good opportunity to reflect on what you think and why certain promises are important to you.

There is precedent for being allowed "to hold and to have" and "in sickness and when we are well" if those would satisfy you.

(BTW, promising not to walk out on a marriage if your spouse gets sick is hardly "picking and choose the nice fluffy bits of religious rites," is it?)

If you used religious vows in your civil ceremony, it wouldn't be a legal service. It really is that simple. Nothing to do with copyright or wedding police.

There are some reasonable options here.

Tortoise

I would say it is. Well, obviously, as I did. It's a traditional romantic promise of future fidelity, no matter what life throws at you. The nice fluffy bits of being a Christian that almost everyone can agree on,even non-Christians. As opposed to much of the Bible, the role of incense in services, kneelers, and veneration of the Virgin Mary, which are all things Christians do disagree on.