To think that you should be able to use the old CofE vows (without the God bits) in a civil wedding ceremony? Ideas on vows VERY welcome.

[Mitchell50]

I'm getting married at the end of September and due to (unsurprisingly) the division of church and state when it comes to civil marriages it turns out you can't use the 'richer for poorer...bla bla' vows in a civil ceremony - this is what the registrar has told us anyway. Is the registrar just being a unimaginative meany or are the wedding police going to parachute into my ceremony at the slightest mention of 'in sickness and in health?'

I think those vows are simple and pretty and I would like to adapt them to suit a civil service and remove the 'god' references to keep the registrar happy...

Thoughts on other vows very welcome though!

Who decides that classical music is religious? The vows I get, but who decides which pieces are fine and which aren't?

They are classed as being religious vows, as their root is in the Book of Common Prayer, and therefore they cannot form part of a civil ceremony.

If people want a civil ceremony, they can't expect to be able to pick bits of the religious service they like, I'm stunned anyone would think they could!

I'm a Christian and I'd have no problem with you using the vows. I doubt God would mind either. This exclusivity on the part of the church does nothing but put people off Christianity even further.

Who decides that classical music is religious?

Suspect this would be down to the individual districts/registrars.

An extract from Handel's Messiah is probably out, but Vivaldi's Spring would be OK.

I don't believe it has anything to do with copyright. I think it's entirely about creating a "safe space" for non-religious people to get married.

Think about why you want to have vows in a civil ceremony - you aren't promising anything, you are entering a legal contract, what you say in your vows has no baring on the contract you are entering, which is why you can have no vows if you want. In religious ceremonies, the vows are the bit that matters, the signing hte paper is just formalities, whereas in a civil ceremony, vows are meaningless and just padding it out a bit.

Say what you like, "you are the cannon to my ball" was one of DH's more 'interesting' suggestions.

Start again, these vows have no legal status and are just for you and DH, so make them tailored to you and DH's marriage. What are your red lines? do you really mean you'd stay together "for better, for worse" "in sickeness and in health" "for richer, for poorer"? Because the relationship board is full of people who are being told to LTB for things that come under those. Are there really no reasons you'd leave him? If he gambled away your family home? If he was emotionally or physically abusive? Those vows are why so many religious people don't believe in divorce and work at relationships so many others would walk away from.

Don't promise somehting to each other you don't mean. Write /make vows you mean.

Moomin Music with obvious religious content, or obviously composed for religious use.

For example, a (very absurd) example could be Gregorian chant.

Thanks for the reasonable options! Much appreciated

If almost everyone (of any belief or none) agrees with it, then how is it specifically part of being a Christian, rather than part of being human? Traditionally, of course, there wasn't much romantic about it -- for the woman at least it was a guarantee of a measure of future economic security that wouldn't have been there if she could be cast off at will.

oh and as suggestions, here's some I've found, I can't remember what DH and I promised!

^I promise that I will respect you as an individual, support you through difficult times, rejoice with you through happy times, be loyal to you always and, above all, love you as my wife/husband and friend.

I promise to care for you above all others, to give you my love and friendship, support and comfort, and to respect and cherish you throughout our lives together.

I give you this ring as a token of my love and friendship.

I give you this ring as a token of our love and marriage, as a symbol of all that we share and in recognition of our life together.

I promise to love and respect you. Helping our love grow, always being there to listen, comfort and support you, whatever our lives may bring.

I give you this ring as a sign of our marriage, and as a symbol of our love. I promise to care for you, to respect and cherish you, throughout our lives together.

I give you this ring as a sign of our love, trust and marriage. I promise to care for you above all others, to give you my love, friendship and support, and to respect and cherish you throughout our life together.

I give you this ring as a symbol of my love and affection, wear it with happiness and pride – now and always.^

I think it's entirely about creating a "safe space" for non-religious people to get married.

Also a good point. Vague, ill-defined religiosity has a way of taking over, and it would quickly turn into a situation where your bog-standard atheist found it was like swimming against a tide, not to have Christian references in their civil ceremony.

Any wedding service has to include three or four lines which are the legal bit, which is the 'I declare there is no lawful impediment' section The rest of it you can write yourself and say more or less what you want. Registry offices are incredibly fussy about these sort of things, you need to double and treble check what they will allow.

I think it is only in the register office environment. Have you looked at wedding venues?

Or try an alternative church, such as Unitarian, who are more liberal minded.

If almost everyone (of any belief or none) agrees with it, then how is it specifically part of being a Christian, rather than part of being human?

The same way as Let It Go is from Frozen, despite being hugely popular. The same way as any verse of poetry is still the work of the poet, even if it resonates with the whole of humanity!

Thank you very much for the reasonable options - appreciated

I think it is only in the register office environment. Have you looked at wedding venues?
Don't think this is true. A civil ceremony is just, that regardless of location.

oh and I walked into the Swan from the Carnival of the Animals and we signed the resiger to Clair d Lune, so you can have classical music, just not religious classical music. Or at least, not in the room when the ceremony is taking place. (you can play any amount of religious stuff outside the ceremony)

You can certainly have classical music. You just have to be creative. We had the tune to I Vow To Thee My Country as one of our pieces when we were signing the register. Registrar told us to out on the form the piece's name - Jupiter from The Planet Suite - rather than I Vow To Thee My Country which is a hymn and therefore something you cannot have.

As previous posters have said if you want a piece or a vow that is known to be said in church, get married in church. You can't expect it have everything!

But it is easy to slide under the radar if you use commonsense and adapt vows or find out the tune of most hymns. If the tune is different in title to the name if the hymn you can get away with it.

'If almost everyone (of any belief or none) agrees with it, then how is it specifically part of being a Christian, rather than part of being human?'

I have to agree - if I used a section from a Keats poem, no one would think...well she is getting married in the philosophical spirit of John Keats. I think the Christian vows are well expressed human sentiments which anyone should be able to use, regardless of the context. Simply falls under the principles of freedom of speech and expression.

It will depend on the venue. Register offices (like modern crematoriums) try and make the environment non-religious).

www.unitarian.org.uk/pages/districts.

We were able to make our own ceremony, as long as it included the wording required legally, many years ago. Talk to your local minister/meeting and someone can help you.

This exclusivity on the part of the church

This isn't the church being exclusive nor is it only in the register office environment as another poster suggests. It is the state that has set the conditions for a civil ceremony. The Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) Regulations 2005 state that the proceedings must not "include extracts from an authorised religious marriage service or from sacred religious texts". That is why you cannot use the vows from the CofE service. Hymns and other religious chants are also banned but readings, songs or music that include an incidental reference to a deity in a non-religious context are allowed.

There is, of course, nothing to stop the couple getting married in a civil ceremony then having another unofficial ceremony using whatever form of words they want. When I married my current wife we chose to get married in a location that had some significance for us although, as Christians, we wanted a Christian ceremony. We therefore had the civil ceremony first then, when the registrar had left, a minister conducted a religious ceremony.

If you used a section from Keats, and didn't attribute it, and pretended that was respecting the beauty of his poetry, I'd think that was pretty slimy, actually. Why should the faith of millions of people for over two millennia be treated with less respect?

If you used a section from a traditional Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu ceremony, I'd think you were getting married in that philosophical spirit. Should Christianity be different there?

"This isn't the church being exclusive nor is it only in the register office environment as another poster suggests. It is the state that has set the conditions for a civil ceremony. The Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) Regulations 2005 state that the proceedings must not "include extracts from an authorised religious marriage service or from sacred religious texts". That is why you cannot use the vows from the CofE service. Hymns and other religious chants are also banned but readings, songs or music that include an incidental reference to a deity in a non-religious context are allowed."

Sorry - I got married before that - (27 years today actually). It would appear the state still has far too much control over how you get married. If you fulfil the legal obligations, you should just be able to sign something and they should but out. We were allowed our own ceremony.

I had terrible trouble with an officious registrar because I wanted to get married in my family church rather than on my own at the other end of the country. Things have improved there though.