in wondering what this generation of enforced renters are going to do

[mustbetimeforacreamtea]

When they reach retirement and can't afford commercial rents on a pension? What happens then?

"Oh. My. God. How do people have such a total lack of understanding about basic economics?"

Whois, do elaborate.

It's not just the life long renters that may have issues in their retirement. But home "owners" like my mother, who have gone down the equity release route. Because of the interest charged on a sum which has no repayments, she won't own any of her house in 2 years time

I know a couple in their 70's who've recently done this, their children were against it but they wouldn't entertain the idea of downsizing.
I imagine they dismissed the children's concerns as pure self interest.
It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that they themselves my be up the creek without a paddle.

They've spend some of the money on home improvements....improving a house that they no longer own.

I can understand them not wanting all the hassle of moving but I suspect an element of snobbery....not wanting the loss of status which they'd have felt at moving into a more modest property.

The smugness just radiates from some people no this thread, assuming we're thick and can't work out how and where to save money.

Suggesting we move out of the SE is a really great idea except that the pay drops £5k the further away I go from my current location. Also, this little thing called my support network and family are quite useful. It's all very well to say "my husband and I did blah blah..." but some of us don't have anyone to be supported by. We are single adults, either with or without children.

I rent a room in an average commuter town, I have a 9 year old car, I buy cheap clothes from Tesco, I haven't been away since I was young enough to go with my family. I have saved some money but I'd love for you all to enlighten me on your wise ways and let me know how I can suddenly afford to buy.

Jeez, there are some smug fuckers on this thread.

The assumption that if you rent and can't afford to save for a deposit it's because you're spending all your disposable income on Sky, smartphones and foreign holidays is downright offensive.

We have been unlucky. Redundancies, disability and repossession have turned us from home owners to renters. I spent years successfully paying off our debts and got us to a point where we could start to save. Then last winter I was made redundant again from my professional managerial job. We have had to relocate to a more expensive area in order for me to find work (with all the associated removal costs and letting agents fees which swallowed up half our meagre savings). I am now on a lower salary than I was and am paying out £200 more PCM on rent. That £200 was our savings buffer. We don't have Sky, our "holiday" this year will consist of 2 nights in a pub in another part of the UK, our car is 7 years old and I only have a (3 year old) smartphone because I was allowed to keep my old company phone when I was made redundant.

Our ex-landlord is trying to keep £500 of our deposit on a flimsy pretext (cost of recarpeting because we left "dents in the carpets" where furniture stood - were we supposed to buy levitating furniture?) and there is no guarantee we will win our dispute, so if we lose there goes a big (because £500 might not be big to some, but it's fucking huge to us) chunk of OUR money. That's the crap renters have to put up with on a regular basis.

And all this against a background of my genuinely-disabled DH probably going to lose his disability-related benefits because of IDS and his odious welfare reforms which are killing people. We claim no other benefits or tax credits and so when he loses his ESA and DLA that will probably make the difference between us being able to afford to live here and not...so what the fuck do we do then? If only we had an expensive Sky contract we could cancel!

But silly me for not saving £50 a week...it's obviously so easy, whyever didn't I think of it?

Both I and DH are house owners (though he's over 50, we both owned property separately before that). We were lucky in buying at the time when prices were cheap (in the northern areas we bought in) but banks were also handing out mortgages like sweeties. I had no deposit and the bank also lent me money for renovations (I had a guarantor but my dad did not put any actual cash in). DH had a bit of a deposit but no help from parents.

He actually contrasts this with his late parents (born in the 1920s) who both worked extremely hard in minimum wage type jobs, including when he was small, and struggled to make ends meet, he took them on their first foreign holiday etc., they always rented. They had a reasonable amount of help from the State in their old age but although they could have afforded, say, a cheap holiday with their pension but were no longer fit enough to enjoy it.

I put DHs relative success down to being an only child of parents who value education because they couldn't get it (without getting too Monty Python, his mother literally left school at 15 to work in a mill).

But I see it as going in cycles and the current cycle seems to be one of renting (and the landlords have to be a bit more scrupulous than some of the private ones in the past) but of education being more widespread, while in their generation neither home ownership nor university education (DH did A levels but went to Uni in his 50s) were at all common.

I don't take any credit at all for wise educational or housing decisions, I was just born at the right time and had the odd bit of sensible advice from my parents.

Why do so many people just shrug and say, oh it was always hard/harder in the past/too many iPhones nowadays etc etc...? Shelter is such a basic human need, and as others have said, it is scandalous that it has been turned into such a commodity.

Do we really want to go back to slums and workhouses?

Seriously great post idealist applauds..fed up of these clueless people making their sweeping generalisations!

I don't think a large percentage of the population renting for their whole lives (rather than just when young before buying) would be a bad thing, as then there's enough voters to push for changes to tenant rights. Also change the planning every older life issue around the assumption of owning property - how to pay for end of life care? Current plans: Sell their houses, sell a % of their houses, put a charge on their house so if it's sold later, the state gets a chunk. All assuming the bulk of people needing care without cash /pension income to cover the bills will own a property.

Gap in pension provision? Downsize your home, live off the difference, or trade in the large family house, buy a small flat to live in and another to rent for an income. And you don't need a big pension payout as by retirement, the assumption is most people will have no housing costs, having paid off mortgages years earlier. (Giving a good decade of working before retirement with no mortgage to pay so lots if time to save towards retirement).

If enough voters aren't owners, government can't plan the economy around owning property, putting pressure on people to buy. Tenant rights do seem to only suit the early 20-something's who are just renting for a bit before buying and want flexibility to move about.

It is NOT easy to save while renting! I do OK. But that is with strict budgeting like I only buy things on offer or buy household things in bulk once a month from Home bargains, shop around every year for cheaper electric deals, mobile phone I budget just £20 a month (use it for everything though so saves lots) Everytime I've had some money to put in savings things happen, Christmas, birthdays, a massive water bill or like last month I saved £250 then the washing machine packed in, happy days! If the landlord ever decides to sell I'd have a mad struggle to find all the fees for a new place. I don't think I'll ever own my own house ever.

Agree with the smug people on this thread to. I had a dig on another forum about the fact I am going on holiday abroad next year with my two sons and how I can't afford to buy as I spend all my money on holidays. The holiday was a present from my Dad who just sold his house to save my Nan's house who has racked up debt from before my Grandad being ill. Soon shut her up. Hate people that judge without knowing facts.

A one bed flat for £60k is crazy. I don't think there are many around at all only where no employment. Even my parents live 3 hrs from London yet a 2 bed flat is still £150k ish

Am selling (due to relocation to yorkshire) a one bedroom flat fixed price fully furnished for a fixed price (is this a scottish thing) 57k in the east end of glasgow.

25 minute walk to George square, lovely area, and my flat is slightly overpriced for the area (but I did buy it for 70 in 2005 so am not going to take more of a hit than that)

Suzanne and others, what to do about it, now that is the question! I know little beyond sensible economics, not this giant monstrosity that now seems to have an independent existence from people (cue not-so-alien horror movies), so I hope someone is working on it somewhere but here are a few thoughts just so that I'm not just whinging. None are very deep, sorry.perhaps it's a bad idea to throw them out at all,but what the hell.

1. Stop 2nd home and multiple home ownership forthwith. We have to recognise that the Uk is an island and land is finite anyway. I don't really even want to tax them out of it, just stop it. Ffs a story I read on Bbc mentioned an individual owning 1000 properties, in se no less. Can't imagine the wealth. It's taking the piss.
2. Build. We're going to have to. Number of households in Uk is bigger than the number of dwellings already, before increases. As to where, I wouldn't want to touch farmland -anyone see the Bbc story about running out of that too recently? - but there are a lot of brownfield sites. The city where I last lived in Uk had a huge site less than a mile from the centre with an old ruined mill in it. It was huge, in an even bigger wasteland. Just a shell and caught fire regulalry so no historical monument, or worthless one if it was. You see loads of derelict buildings in uk cities, something I've yet to see on the continent. 2a) Particularly build social housing, and flats for 1 person households. Don't try telling me there's no money. There's plenty of money in this country it is all just spent in stupid ways, eg eurofighter, private train companies and other projects designed solely to transfer public money into private hands.
3. 3d printing technology is coming on and seems to be able to build houses cheaply. Out of cement, but surely that's better than the plasterboard they're using right now.
4. Like I said I know nothing about economics or the banking system. But the difference between the interest rates on savings and on loans, including mortgages, is very noticeable, and doens't seem to me to be very defensible.
5. I really haven't the faintest idea how to touch this but we could really do with getting rid of this idea that space= prestige. Why have 5 bedroom houses if you only have 1 kid, I've never understood it. The aim woukd be to take up less land, reducing pressure -most housing cost is land cost. I'm not saying get rid of gardens by the way, gardens fulfil all sorts of social and environmental functions en masse and I think it is a shame how many are being concreted.
6. population. The difficult one that none of us really want to look at. Especially on a site of mums. But we're going to have to. Look at those household/dwelling figures again, and here's the bbc story. Not sure how far to trust bbc at moment, but there it is. Perhaps a pan-european look at making other countries nicer places to live in would bear fruit as well as limiting births here.

Not very deep, like I said. By the way, there was a large housing correction in the early 90s, and that didn't have any catastrophic effects on the financial system - the buggers are still here. For the individuals in negative equity, no ideas yet. Some of it was their own fault though, it has to be said. Sorry for the length, especially to op, but I do think it's important to not just be negative.

IdealistAndProudOfIt I agree!

I know little of the details of economics, but there has to be a better way... We need more efficient use of space in homes, better building standards (proper storage space, not classifying a glorified cupboard as a bedroom) Another thing I hear is that a lot of the big developers are 'land banking' i.e. buying up land with planning permission and just sitting on it - perhaps there should be a law where building has to start within 1-2 years?

Degustibusnonestdisputandem are you sure you'll be able to afford a house in Aus? The cost of living in Aus has gone through the roof. When I was home 12 months ago my DM gave me $50 to get some bread, milk and a couple of other things. I came back with barely any change and I just couldn't work it out!

There needs to be better renters rights. I was reading another forum last night with a BTL who had a massive amount of debt and was going to lose it all and he kept saying he wasn't a buisness man and he needed to pay someone else to help him get out of the shit

People aren't going to want to hear this but London in particular, needs to start building up. We are crammed in as much as you can be here, with everyone living cheek to jowl in our terraces but they are only 1 story, we need proper sized family flats 5 - 10 story high (preferably with balconies ) not terrace houses subdivided. I noticed a house near me the other day that was a 2 up 2 down had been split into two flats. WTAF? I'm not even sure how that would be possible!

But mostly I am thankful that my DH had the sense to insist we buy in 2010, there is no chance we could afford now and I really hope prices come down as 600 for a 2 bed flat is fucking outrageous and I wonder if there will be anyone left soon who can actaully afford to buy.

PossumPoo I actually sort of already have a house in Oz - a cottage on my parents' farm in Victoria.

Yes I know Oz house prices are insane & the cost of living has gone up also (I keep an eye on prices from here), but we will probably get the odd butchered pig/sheep at very little cost from family & be able to grow some of our own veg. (parents also have small orchard in garden).

well in that case Degustibusnonestdisputandem I'm actually a little jealous!

all this 'most families can afford 130k' is nonsense. In that particular area the wages will be lower, hence lower house prices its supply and demand. To take London wages and then announce the area is 'affordable' just isn't true. My in laws don't quite get this particular point.

It's pretty simple any area is affordable if you have more money than the average person who owns a property there. This principle even applies to Central London - perfectly affordable for a Russian billionaire, for example!
yanbu op god knows.

PossumPoo aww It will be a wrench to leave here eventually though, my in-laws are so lovely

ifyourawizard Re :owning your house outright in 6 years because you lived in a caravan.
You may have got the house through hard work but of course you are lucky.
How many people meet someone they are compatible enough to live a frugal life in a caravan with for 6 years plus both of you having good enough jobs to get a mortgage. I struggled to find a boyfriend who wanted even half the same things at me. That's the lucky bit.
No way would you have paid for a house on your own.
I have a friend that did buy a flat completely on her own but no way would she own it outright for years.

Makes me sick ... in other European countries where tenants have better rights (e.g. longer tenancies, can't be evicted at the whim of the landlord, etc) people rent out of choice, not merely because they can't afford to buy. With spiralling house prices in the UK, surely an obvious solution would be to make renting more attractive by improving tenants' rights, therefore taking the heat out of the property market?

I'm nearing 40 now, so at an age where I'm thinking that if I don't buy now I'll never be able to, because I won't be working for long enough to pay off the mortgage! And I live in an extortionately expensive area of the country.

Some interesting ideas about how to rethink the property market here.

By the way, there was a large housing correction in the early 90s, and that didn't have any catastrophic effects on the financial system

one of the problems with a price crash is that it allows the wealthy to buy up a lot of cheap property, property ownership then becomes even more concentrated in the hands of the rich.
When a few people are in control of a resource that we all need they are able to milk us for profits.
The boom and bust cycle continues.

Things such as housing, utilities, anything that we all need will always be a magnet for those seeking profits, I suppose all we can do is have rules and regulations, checks and balances

tighter regulation of the rental market (and the bastard parasite money grabbing letting agency leaches) would likely lead to many landlords selling their btl properties.
Who would they sell them to?
Foreign investors?

leeches not leaches

Suzannewithaplan BTL landlords generally own properties at the cheaper end of the market. If they had to sell up, there would be hundreds of people eager to leap out of the rental trap and snap them up. First-time buyers are competing with landlords - go to rightmove and look at how many cheap properties are advertised as 'ideal first time buy or investment opportunity'! And, surely tighter rental regulations would make property less attractive to foreign investors, not more attractive.

Renting is the norm in many other countries .
Even if there is no state pension there will be the equivalent like income support- there have always been people who rent - if ur earnings go bellow a certain level you can get help.