in wondering what this generation of enforced renters are going to do

[mustbetimeforacreamtea]

When they reach retirement and can't afford commercial rents on a pension? What happens then?

[Nomama]

cooperG, but that's what people have always done.

Either live with ILs immediately after marriage and save like crazy, buy a house then start the family.

Or have family and live with ILS and save like crazy.

Mine did the latter.

Times haven't changed that much.

[Missunreasonable]

I don't think working whilst you have a sick or not sick child is putting a child second. If you think it is presumably you think the children's father who might do exactly that should be exiled to the furthest reaches of hell for not putting his child first by being with it all the time.

The point is that one of US would be with the sick child. We are both parents and either of us could assume the full time caring role. Leaving a sick/ disabled child with paid non parent carers is not the same. I could easily earn the same as my husband. I have been to uni (an RG uni as a mature student) and have a good degree. My earning potential is probably higher than my husbands but we decided that I was better at assuming the caring role (for various practical reasons) whilst he brings home the bacon. If I was not around for any reason then I know that my husband would give up work in an instant to ensure that our son is properly cared for. Money could never come before our children. In you case we have enough equity to move a couple of miles away and be mortgage free if required.
The example you gave was of a woman who works and has a child with a life limiting illness (my child does not have a life limiting illness). My point was that no amount of money could make me choose between spending time with a dying child or going to work and having a career. Some things are far more important than money and property.

[Suzannewithaplan]

Jane, you are the very epitome of virtue and self denial and no mistake.

[JaneParker]

Jam is the wrong metaphor for me as I odn't eat sugar which is one rason I'm happy successful and never ill. It's not my phrase.It is a very old and sensible one. It is just about suffering a bit now to ensure life is better later. The good thing is that the "suffering" (hard work or saving up or whatever) makes you happier anyway whereas sitting around saving up no money tends not to make you happy as you don't achieve flow.

[Suzannewithaplan]

hmm, I think jam can be anything which gives gratification, jam now people want instant gratification, the jam laters are prepared to do without and save for a rainy day, etc, that probably doesnt answer your question.

I've always liked peanut butter over jam anyway

[JaneParker]

I don't think working whilst you have a sick or not sick child is putting a child second. If you think it is presumably you think the children's father who might do exactly that should be exiled to the furthest reaches of hell for not putting his child first by being with it all the time. May be it's beause you chose not to go to university your income is less? Is that not the reason - that your choices had consequences? Anyway you have bought so are not what the thread is about. It's about people not making sacrifices today like sleeping on floors or the couple above who will live with parents (and by the way nothing to stop anyone ever having a baby hilst living with parents - ridiculous to think otherwise - the baby goes in a carry cot on the bed room floor of where the young couple live - you don't need perfection to give birth - get on with it now whilst saving for the place and don't give up full time work when the baby comes and don't take very long off on maternity leave - all jam tomorrow thingswhich will ensure the jam will come as you sacrificed the idea of having the perfect house before the baby comes along.

[Missunreasonable]

None of us jam tomorrow people would say life is easy for those with disabled children (although we all do know women like Nicola Horlick who had to cope with full time work other children and a sick and then dying child - if you earn a lot as a woman you can defnitely afford more care for the disabled child so I really would emphasise the importance of women picking higher paid careers if they can or at the least passing that advice on to their daughters).

But no amount of Jam could make me sacrifice what little time I would have with a sick and dying child. My child in that situation would be the priority.

I didn't go to uni when I left school, I went Into full time work and then took on a 2nd part time job and bought a house at 19. I have since been to uni as a mature student. I have a good level of education. I have worked hard. I own a house (well we still have a mortgage on the house but we own more than 60% of it). No matter what, I wouldn't want to be like Nicola Horlick and put a career and earning money before spending time with a Child who has a life limiting illness. My child's disability is not life limiting. I could perhaps earn enough to cover his specialists care but I won't attempt to to do that because my care is better than any care that paid carers could provide. He is happy with me and that is my priority.

[cooperG]

I've not read the whole thread, but people saying "look at our grandparents' generation - nobody owned, everyone rented".. I don't know if you're ignoring facts on purpose or what, but private rent, massively overinflated rent prices compared to earnings and btl are all relatively new. My grandparents both actually own their homes, but their parents didn't, they also didn't rent privately. Social housing, if done properly, works fine. The government doesn't WANT us in social housing or there'd be a lot more of it available.

My husband and I are 28 and earn average wages working full time, in September when our tenancy is up, we're moving back to pils to save for a deposit as it is our only option. This means putting having a family on hold, let's hope we can still get pregnant when we've got our house, as the govt are always reminding us, "the longer you leave it, the more your fertility declines". Can't win!

[littleSpud]

God I worry about this loads. but no chance of us ever getting a mortgage

[Suzannewithaplan]

all this jam subterfuge is mind boggling :o

[JaneParker]

Always hide your jam. Irish labourers working on our garden asked if we wanted the cars towed away (our cheap cars which get us from A to B which cost about 1k and are the reason we live fairly well.... others think they need a 15k car taken out on finance).... Jam tomorrow people can come up with all kinds of simiar examples.

I am not saying if you do the jam tomorrow thing from age 10 you will always buy a house but it definitely is a good strategy and one many people could adopt today.

None of us jam tomorrow people would say life is easy for those with disabled children (although we all do know women like Nicola Horlick who had to cope with full time work other children and a sick and then dying child - if you earn a lot as a woman you can defnitely afford more care for the disabled child so I really would emphasise the importance of women picking higher paid careers if they can or at the least passing that advice on to their daughters).

Also be prepared to slum it. We lived in outer London and commuted in. The first house we bought costs 275k today which is not too bad for London if you have two professional salaries coming - obviously part of my jam tomorrow was not taking maternity leaves so I have worked continuously for 30 years now. Not surprisingly I have more jam than had I not ever worked in those 30 years. We tend to reap what we sow in life.

[Nomama]

We did hide our jam... I was born Up North, about 4 miles from the jam Butty Mines, so I have experience in that area

They made assumptions based on our jobs and fact that we do not go on Caribbean holidays! They are a species unto themselves!

[SignYourName]

Jane I wish I lived on your planet. There is very little that makes me "happy" about the caring I have to do for my disabled DH. It's just a pretty fucking relentless grind of doling out his tablets, dealing with all the household paperwork as he doesn't have the mental capacity to do it (on top of working full-time), fighting with the frustrating bureaucracy of the DWP on his behalf, dealing with his night terrors yadda yadda yadda. I do it because it has to be done and because I love him. Nothing is going to change, I'm not going to be magically handed the keys to my own house because I've put the hard yards in juggling full-time work with my caring responsibilities.

And as for judging people who don't research and choose high-paying careers; do you not think nurses deserve a place of their own? Or care workers? Or cleaners? We'd be in a hell of a mess (literally, in the case of the latter!) without them.

It simply isn't as black and white as "study hard, work hard, save hard, buy house".

[Suzannewithaplan]

Nomama, I have relatives like that, 'life is for living, spend it while you've got it'
And yes I can think of a couple who are currently spending the equity in their house and the jam tomorrow daughter will be expected to save them if it all goes pear shaped.
Isnt it weird how they overlook the very reason that you have spare funds, ie because you saved it up instead of blowing the lot

My strategy is to keep my jam hidden, and live in a manner which suggests I have no spare jam

[Nomama]

I suspect you mean my ILs, Suzanne. Took out the equity in their house every year to go on Caribbean holidays. I quote "We live today as though it is a gift, that is why it is called The Present" - I do hope those are lyrics, I'd have to revise my impression of SILs intellect otherwise.

Their jam today became a hopeful jam from us for tomorrow, when BIL was under threat of redundancy. They actually asked if we could give (not lend, give) them whatever they would need to tide them over , as we were so well off and all that!

Flea was introduced to ear sharply. They have spent the intervening 6 years telling all and sundry how selfish we are, how we left them in the lurch... and no, he wasn't made redundant.

So I do think that, for some people, the hardships and worries and self inflicted. But as a jam tomorrow person, one who has weathered lots of redundancies, losses and setbacks and managed not to lose heart but to keep on plugging away, I would say that, wouldn't I?

[JaneParker]

I don't think the deferring of gratification makes you unhappy though. I thikn you get immersed in your work (or hard work caring for disabled children or whatever) and that that itself makes you happier than year of lotus eating spending as you earn.

Yes luck comes into it too but as Suzanne says the deferment of instant gratification so that you work harder than anyone in your class, get the best exam results in the school, don't get drunk all the time at university, do your work experience, research whih jobs pay highest rather than going into some low paid work - all these things help improve people's chances to buy a property and you can plan these. I began planinng them when I was about 10 or 12. I agree bad things can happen to you all the same (some have happened to me) but you can usually pick yourself up and keep on and on the whole things can come good.

[Suzannewithaplan]

Tanith, I have to admit I wandered off on a bit of a jam tangent there and I was thinking in more general terms about people who never save for a rainy day and then lean on their frugal friends and family when they dont have the funds to cover emergencies.

Your dads unused jam would have at least benefited his surviving family, assuming his estate was passed to them?

[Tanith]

Suzanne, there are enough people, like my dad, who never live to benefit from their forward planning. It's their jam pots that are used, surely?

[writtenguarantee]

My point is that instead of reducing economic inequality 'right to buy' has increased and entrenched the gap between the haves and the have nots.

A kind of 'I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder' policy

that's what it seems like to me.

I am glad that we live in a society where people don't easily go homeless, that there is a safety net there so people just don't find themselves on the street. That's great. But it should stop there, ESPECIALLY since it such a lottery system. It is such an incredible deal (or used to be), it reduces the public housing stock, and is patchily applied, and of course reduces the capacity for the state to help those worse off. By trying to help people into middle class lives and secure home ownership, the state has allowed huge queues for state housing to build for those who need it more.

[Suzannewithaplan]

I am very much a 'jam tomorrow' person.
I respect the right of others to choose jam today but I feel pissed off when the jam today people land on their arses and I'm the only one available to pick up the pieces.
They've had their jam and now they want my jam too
:( :( :(

[Suzannewithaplan]

It's always a gamble, live for today, or make sacrifices for a tomorrow that you may never see!

[Tanith]

Yes, JaneParker - my dad did all that: saved every penny he could and economised whenever he could. You'd call him a Jam Tomorrow person.

He died at 55, before he had chance to benefit from any of it.

[Suzannewithaplan]

Of course the inclination to defer gratification does not guarantee good outcomes in life.

Then again ceteris parebis those who opt for that strategy will do better than those who don't.

We get where we get through a combination of luck and judgment, no one is suggesting that the former can be controlled but that is not a reason to neglect the latter.