AIBU to think about NOT starting dd at school because of toilet issues and shyness

[Itsjustmeagain]

dd is 3 now but will be 4 in August and is due to start reception in September. She is our 4th child the older three have started school with no problems and are happy at the school (they are 9,7 and 5 - dd3 is in reception with the same teacher now).

dd4 has been a total nightmare with toilet training, she is generally ok at home but cant cope outside the house at all. She is currently at nursery and wets herself 5 + times a day - yet at home she will be dry for the whole day. This has been the same at two different nuseries (it was so bad and her anxiety so high at the firs nursery we moved her as we thought there must be something majorly wrong there).

We went for an hour induction at her new school, I stayed the current class was there and so her sister was there - she knew people she wsnt alone. She wouldn't leave my side, she has been wetting herself even at home the last week since that day.

I am totally at my wits end with it - I have taken her to the doctor who said that she has no infection or anything that would be making her unable to use the toilet and tbh she is find at home when she isnt stressed - I know she will have weeks of good behaviour and using the toilet no problem over the summer since I will be at home with her.

I am now a sahm, partly because she was struggling so much at nursery and it was just so stressful for everyone.

AIBU to think about not actually starting her at school this year, most people I speak to in real life say "she will have to grow out of it" or "she needs to get used to it" but I just dont feel I can send her into a classroom when she will literally spend all day crying and wetting herself. Especially when at home she is a happy, smiling and confident 3 year old.

AIBU because everyone I speak to seems to think I am!

I really sympathise with your situation. My DD started school shortly after her 4th birthday and found it overwhelming and stressful. That was after a year and a half at nursery. Everyone told me that it would get better and it's entirely normal but after a term of utter misery and a downward spiral of regression we took her out. The school were completely disinterested in her problems and made it clear their priority was ofsted, attendance and funding.

Towards the end of the school year we approached other schools about a new start and one head teacher suggested beginning again in reception. We have now had this confirmed and all we needed was a letter from the GP saying that starting school at 4 caused anxiety problems but I know it varies from area to area.

She is about to turn 5 and is a very different child, for her a year has made a huge difference.

There's a Facebook group called "flexible admissions for summer borns" which is really helpful. Lots of info for those wishing to defer. I hope she improves soon no matter what you decide. It must be very stressful!

As a teacher I often see children who are clearly not ready start school full time. It's a real shame as they often cry a lot...fall asleep at lunch..clingy to the teacher...struggle to socialise. I think you're doing the right thing by keeping her back. She'll probably develop and mature a lot by next sep and fingers crossed she'll enter into yr1 with no problems. I wouldn't try formal learning at home but encourage reading/mark making/basic number through play and real life activities

Your poor Dd, could she try short days at nursery and try to build her confidence. that if she does not go to school now she will be just skipped ahead year next year. She is just not ready. I am in Irl and like Donner in Scotland your Dd would not be in school in sept, here in Irl she would most likely be in nursery 4/5 mornings a week rather then primary school.

erin, the school nursing service only kicks in once they're in school or have reached age 5, depending on your LA. Up to that time it's the HV who deals with all child health issues.

And our enuresis clinic doesn't take any child until they are 7 years old, as they don't consider it a problem until them. Again, it may be different in the OP's LA.

Also, as far as I remember from another similar thread, the LA has a duty to consider any request to defer a child but has no obligation to grant the request. OP, I would check the rules first before you make any firm decision not to send her to school in December.

Sorry, I meant September!

Reception teacher here.

Is there anyway you could get her to do half days? I had a child do that a few years ago. She just did mornings for the first term. However she felt she was missing out in the afternoons so ended up staying all day.
Something like that would be my first option.
Otherwise I would talk to the reception teacher and ask them to give you a short note each week about what they are covering. That way you can make sure you cover at home everything they do in school.

I would be very cautious though about keeping her off school entirely until year one as it will be very hard for her to settle in and socialise.

suburbanRhonda are you 100% sure about that? If so I'm sorry for all the 4-6 year olds in your area who are wetting their pants 10 times a day and getting no help whatsoever. The 7yo rule used to apply here for nighttime wetting, but no school child can just be expected to walk around permanently wet all day just because they're not 7 yet, surely?

You're right re it being HVs at this stage but since it relates to when the child will be in school, wouldn't school nurse be more relevant than HV? Or maybe ask HV to talk to school nurses. We were specifically directed to contact the school nurses beforehand to get a plan set up ready for her to start. Do yours simply refuse to talk to parents until 2nd Sept? How does that work with children who have allergies etc and need a plan for managing it?

Can you not delay her/keep her back a year? Rather than "missing" a year and having to rejoin her classmates.

Or move to Scotlandand she'd still have a full year of nursery with her birthday!

Sounds very difficult and stressful for you both.

Erin, we got special dispensation for ds1 to attend enuresis clinic at 6 for daytime wetting, but this was only because his sister was a current patient at 8...
Enuresis clinic normally 7 for referrals.

HV should be able to do referrals if they are accepted in your area though. It would be unlikely that they would take a referral at 3, tbh.

Mine started yr r on time. Two out of the three regularly came home swinging bags of sodden clothing on their arms. Dd1 was eventually dry in the summer holiday between yr 1 and yr 2. Ds1 was still seeing the school counsellor, a clinical psych (essentially camhs) and an outreach worker in y4. He's 12 and only wets at night now.

Does she visit the school a lot to see her siblings in plays/ assemblies etc? I think the biggest thing is to get her familiarised. I'm not sure I would hold her back entirely. But you have a number of options, and to be honest, you can just suck it and see. You don't have to make 'THE' decision now. You are free to change your mind at any point, depending on success levels.

we dont have reception so if I get bit wrong forgive me, do you have to send her at 4 can you not wait till she is 5 she doesnt sound ready or able for school she isnt your first child you know she isnt ready

As she is due to start school in September then the school nurse should be avaibale to discuss a problem with regards to starting school. DS starts in September and I have a meeting with the school nurse soon to put a care plan in place.

Your school is wrong. Your daughter does not have to start in September. You can keep your place and keep her at home till the following Easter. She does not have to start straight away.

Please come to the Primary School forum in Education. There are admissions experts there who will be able to give you all the info you need to ensure that the school doesn't force you to start your daughter in September or give up her place.

Nor do the school have the right to "consider" whether they will allow your dd to attend part time. That decision is yours.

My understanding is that if you are given the option to delay school start by a full year, then you have to re-apply for a reception place and the normal admission rules apply. You don't get an automatic place the following year if you had a place the previous year.

When ds1 started school he went for 2 hours a day for the first term (he didn't start full time until year 1 - the term after he was 5). It was tbh a total PITA from my point of view but it's very much an option to go part time.

I would go back to school & push for part time (& I would start with 2 hours a day). If they won't allow that then I would tell them she'll be starting later.

I would keep her back a year, she is so so young. Schooling starts far too early here. In a year if she has the same problems then that is a different matter but she sounds like she is not ready at all.

I don't understand the English system at all. But from experience of starting school in Scotland at 4.5 I would say delay her starting for a year. She won't miss out like you think she will. At her age she doesn't need "educating" she needs time to play and develop and spend time with you. As others have said she will be in a different place emotionally and physically in a year. Starting her at school now may well permanently set her up as a shy child within her peer group. On the other hand it might be the making of her, but I wouldn't risk it.

This sounds like the youngest child syndrome; perfectly happy at home, and enjoying being the baby; doesn't want to leave, and reverts to babyish behaviour when made to. Wetting herself five times a day at nursery sounds deliberate, when she is perfectly clean at home. Definitely discuss this with school so they are forewarned, and may consider a delayed induction, but I don't think the trouble is her age, it is her determination not to leave you. She sounds very strong-willed; she has managed to engineer you into staying at home to appease her; I think you would be very foolish to consider home schooling.

I'm afraid that OP doesn't have the right to wait a year to send her daughter to reception. Although guidelines have changed, parents have to show a good reason for their August born child to wait a year to start reception. Usually this comes down to special or medical needs and you will need medical and professional documentation. You cannot just ask for this.

You can demand to delay starting Reception and that time depends on the age of your child. As yours is born in August that would mean you can delay starting till the summer term.

Legally you do not have to start her till the term after she turns 5. This will mean that she starts in Year 1 though, not reception. Although she will miss a year with her peers children settle in fast at that age.

However you will only get a place at the school if there are vacancies.

If you repost this on the Home Ed board I'm sure you'll get plenty of support if you decide to keep your daughter at home for now.

I wish I'd done this with my youngest son, and am now considering taking him out for Year 1.

Dd is an April birthday and went part time until Easter when she turned 5. There were only two children in the three reception classes that did part time but school were very flexible.

She started mornings only. Then progressed to one full day (of our choosing- school even let us know what activities were on which days so we could pick one she would really enjoy).

Once she settled into that she did 3 full days and two half days until full time at Easter.

Dd didn't have the issues yours does. She just isn't good at new things. And we felt full time was too much for her.

A slower, more gradual phase into school sounds like it might your with her anxiety and so lessen her problems with toiletting.

The other child that is still part time in dd's year has only just had her birthday. She also has toiletting needs and wears a watch that vibrates every hour to remind her to try for a wee.

I hope, whatever you decide, things work well for you both. They are so little when they start school in this country.

Schools have seen it all before.

Foundation stage isn't about educating, it's about learning through play. The first year is just a big behaviour management lesson. This will be a great opportunity for your child to learn new strategies from others.

erin, yes I am 100% sure of that. It would not be very helpful to the OP to post the information if I wasn't sure.

However, as I stated quite clearly, this is my LA and it may be different in others. I'm puzzled by your comment that schools are full of 4-6 year-olds walking around in wet underwear. Under 7 is the cut-off for referral to the enuresis clinic, not the cut-off for any support in school for toileting problems. We have several children with wetting and soiling problems in school - many have toileting plans and all are well-supported.

Just because a child is in school does not mean the school nurse is a more appropriate service. Some school nurses will work with under-5s, but if the HV has been closely involved with the family from birth it makes sense for them to oversee the transition to school.

No-one "refuses" to talk to parents - they are professionals. I'm not sure why you have been so snippy in your post, but all the health professionals I work with closely with have the welfare of the child at heart. They provide the service they feel is most appropriate for the child's health needs.

NyNaeves that is not true in every area. Some LAs will accede entirely to parental choice. The guidance does not require evidence.

OP join the FB group ' Flexible Admission fir summer born children'. Lots of helpful info.

I would definitely keep her at home at least for this year. She doesn't have to be in education until the term after her fifth birthday. Just four is very young to start school and that extra year can make all the difference to a child's development.

She could stay in preschool for that year (children are funded until the term after they turn 5), stay at home with you, or attend school part time (that's your right although school may disapprove, they can't actually do anything about it until she is statutory education age).

CAMHS won't see a child as young as your dd. If you're concerned then speaking to the health visitor or gp about a referral to Child development clinic is the way to go (they deal with under fives) - I think in your shoes, I'd give her at least another year and see how it works out.

My oldest child (ds) had some issues with continence and social development. He is the very oldest in his class. He attended school part time for one term, and it did him no good at all. He'd come home three days out of five having soiled himself, school were useless at reminding him to use the toilet and tbh he actually needed more help than that. I ended up Home Educating him until the end of Year 1 (so he was nearly 7, being a September birthday). I'd have been very happy to continue home educating him and we had a great social life through home ed groups, where he could learn social rules with me to support him and time out when it got too much. he has changed beyond recognition in those two years and although he does have some issues with toileting he is able to manage it in school, and he wants to go to school.

The incontinence clinic here doesn't deal with children under the age of 8. Different areas have different rules.