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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be severely pissed off at the comments re Rolf Harris' victims & compensation?

89 replies

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 01/07/2014 13:59

Bit of background 1st - I know quite a bit about 'compensation culture' as I've worked within the claims industry in my job for over 20 years. Not specifically criminal injuries type of claims, but I'm 'well versed' in the process, how it works etc.

Watching a discussion earlier on Loose Women (I know, in know) and I was really shocked with the general consensus of both the panel & audience that the victims of Harris' abuse shouldn't be able to claim compensation as it 'doesn't change what happened' and to even think about that prior to conviction gives the accused the 'stick' of using money as motivation for the accusations in the 1st place.

Given my background, I have quite strong views about what warrants a claim for compensation and in the case of victims of abuse, I absolutely 100% think they are entitled to pursue a claim against the perpetrator of the abuse, especially where they have the means. The impact of that abuse on those victims is, in many if not most cases, significant, long term, and extremely damaging in many aspects of those lives affected. Knowing the things that are taken into account when 'valuing' compensation, abuse victims more than many 'tick' the boxes required to warrant compensation as a result of what they've endured (and in the case of historical abuse, that's exacerbated by the length of time between the abuse happening and any action taken which results in a conviction).

So why do some people, generally, feel that in the case of abuse victims, compensation shouldn't be pursued, or isn't warranted? The impression Im getting is that this is a commonly held view - but I thought id check what others think about this, as I really cannot fathom the mindset which seems to condemn victims for even considering pursuing claims for compensation.

I fully expect to get a flaming for watching Loose Women (and generally it's not a programme I watch) but that aside, is the general view that compensation isn't warranted in these situations?

OP posts:
ILickPicnMix · 04/07/2014 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerrenaHarridan · 04/07/2014 13:16

Thanks op.

People are forgetting it's about more than emotional distress.

It's about helping you cope with the financial strain that can be placed on you due to abuse and the long term impacts.

I was mid gcses. Straight a mock results in 14 subjects.

I had to move schools as I could no longer get the bus there. I had to drop 5 of my gcses as my new school didn't offer and couldn't support me to continue all of them.

I left school with 1 b 5 c and failed the rest completely.

I became heavily into drugs, got kicked out, slept with anyone who tried it on as I was too scared to try and say no and worked as a prostitute for about a year.
And eventually with support I pulled it together.

Where would I be today if my school bus driver hadn't been a rapist?
What would my earning potential have been if I hadn't been targeted at such a crucial point in my life?

It doesn't matter any more, I'm settled and happy and can mostly manage the hang ups I'm left with.

But I really don't think it's helpful to compare taking compensation to prostitution. In fact if you did that to my face, you would really reget it.

I hope rh's victims get the compensation they deserve and I hope they blow it on a long family holiday to escape the judging arseholes who've just seen them dragged through the emotional wringer in full media hype

Gruntfuttock · 04/07/2014 13:23

Sentenced to only 5 years and 9 months! That's disgustingly lenient, especially given that he'll be out in half that time. What an insult to the victims.

limitedperiodonly · 04/07/2014 13:27

People and the media were solidly behind Shirley Woodman in her fight for compensation from her rapist.

I was behind her too because I don't think it's my place to judge victims' desire to destroy their oppressors. I would stop them doing that - even to the extent of disapproving of victim statements read out in court - but I just just don't presume to judge their desire for vengeance.

But she was overwhelmingly 'nice' and he was the polar opposite. If the situations were reversed she'd have been vilified by the media outlets who championed her. Particularly if he was a celebrity. I'm thinking of The Sun, though my link is a Telegraph one. She sounds like a Telegraph-reading 'lady', btw, which I imagine is why they got so involved.

As I said, I'm glad she won. But it was ruled only that courts should have 'discretion' in cases such as hers. So a victim who wasn't as 'nice' as her, attacked by someone who wasn't as 'nasty' as him would still be vilified in public opinion and probably get short shrift in the courts.

I'm happy with the ruling on an emotional level but slightly uneasy on another level. If parties agree to a full and final settlement in divorce actions, or any other action, is it right that you can come back?

I don't know.

limitedperiodonly · 04/07/2014 13:29

Obviously x-posted with the Rolf Harris sentence.

hiddenhome · 04/07/2014 13:42

I was advised by the police to apply for compensation from the Criminal injuries compensation people even though the CPS wouldn't take my two abusers to court because of lack of evidence or witnesses.

The criminal injuries people turned my application down because they said they didn't believe my statement because I had waited until I was 30 before going to the police Sad

I made my statement in 1999 long before this historic abuse stuff was well known.

I was going to spend the money on counselling as my head is still screwed up and my life pretty much ruined.

Money doesn't make up for the pain, but you can use it to pay people to tell you how to live a reasonable life whilst carrying it with you.

limitedperiodonly · 04/07/2014 13:47

Where would I be today if my school bus driver hadn't been a rapist?

That's exactly what I was thinking yesterday HerrenaHarridan. And I know one of Harris's victim's expressed exactly the same thing in her impact statement.

I completely believe it and my mind explodes trying to think of where someone would be if this or that had or hadn't happened to them. That's all of us, not just people like you who've had the most terrible things happen.

So sorry if what I said about impact statements offended you. You haven't said that (so far while I'm writing this) but that occurred to me after I read your post.

My problem with impact statements is two-fold. What if you're not a 'nice' victim/have no friends or inarticulate ones?

I also doubt that judges pay anything more than lip service to them. They are window dressing.

I tend to trust and respect judges' judgements more and more these days. Partially that's because of strict sentencing guidelines and also because I do these days tend to trust judges' decisions - particularly senior ones - far more than the decisions of politicians.

There is a lot of work to be done but I also think that slowly we're changing the image and background of the person who wears the wig and sits on the throne.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 04/07/2014 13:55

Limited, listening to the summary of judgement given by the judge today, I think both impact statements and mitigation statements play a huge part in how sentences are determined. I do agree though, that being articulate in expressing the impact may help some and possibly hinder other victims who, for what ever reason, may not be able to express the impact in a clear and understandable way. I'd like to think that in those cases, perhaps there would be help/support, or some sort of advocate who could put together a statement that can give the necessary impact. But I have no knowledge or experience of this so have no idea if that happens or not.

OP posts:
HerrenaHarridan · 04/07/2014 16:46

I'm not offended limited. The only thing that offended me was the prostitue comment.

Impact statements are both important and pointless.

When I put in mine 18 months post attack know one knew I would be still affected by alopecia 15 years later.
Or that I would end up having such a screwed up sex life and relationships or any of the real craziness to follow.

Victims are judged differently depending on the circumstances.
For instance you are not entitled to cica if you have a criminal record.

5 years 9mo is a joke but hopefully at his age he won't be coming back out.
Sexual offenders of children always have a hard time in prison, he will not be able to pretend to be anything but.

And due to his notoriety he will never be left alone with a vulnerable person again.

limitedperiodonly · 04/07/2014 17:09

I was involved in the criminal justice system only as an observer, and that was a long time ago. I started at the dawn of the CPS.

I met many people I liked, many more that I despised for various reasons, and some that I admired.

My professional and interested amateur status tells me that the standard of the judiciary and the CPS has improved vastly over 30 years - but I'm an amateur. I'd really welcome the input of someone working within those fields.

Maybe they'd tell me that I'm naive. I don't mind. Please do, if it's true.

I also really worry about the starving of funds for legal aid and the CPS and the boundless advantages for people who have money to fund their defences.

Look at the phone-hacking trial.

LizzieCornish · 30/07/2014 10:08

There is NO evidence in any way, shape or form, to connect Rolf Harris to EVER having given a concert at Leigh Park Community Centre where he is alleged to have assaulted a 7 year old girl. She is, in fact, the ONLY person on the planet who can place Rolf there. The police themselves admitted to The Defence that despite an extensive search of over 7 YEARS of local newspaper archives, council records and leafleting hundreds of local homes for memories of this concert, nothing at all was found.

TWO people stated they vaguely recalled Rolf as having been 'somewhere in the general area' ??? and because of this, she was allowed to take her ridiculous story to Court.

She specifically placed Rolf on stage, having just finished singing to an excited audience and as she got to the front of the queue, on the stage, he assaulted her twice, running his hands up her legs and over her vaginal area, outside her pants. Try this yourself, ladies. Most people stand with their legs together, so he'd have had to push her little legs apart. She'd have flinched, squirmed, probably called out or just run away, but she said he did this twice, the second time more forcefully. She said nothing, no-one noticed a thing, not even those directly behind her who'd have been looking directly at Rolf (people do when standing in queues for celebrities).

That aside though, he was never even there. I've even phoned up Leigh Park Community Centre, spoken to 2 staff there (you can do this too, you know) who are as deeply concerned as I am. They told me that yes, police had searched their records, finding nothing. They also told me that they know no-one who has any memory of such a concert. Leigh Park is a vast council estate, the hall is small, the stage is low (google image for it, 'Leigh Park Community Hall in Havant)

Rolf stated he'd never been there. He was telling the truth.

At that time, he'd have been at the height of his fame and trust me, HAD he played such a venue, as one of the staff said, it would still be remembered to this day amongst local people, many families having lived on the estate for generations. Also, it would have been FRONT PAGE news in the local paper too, which is called 'The News', based in Portsmouth.

Also, the police again confirmed to The Defence that they had been sent the entire film of 'It's A Knockout' which DID take place in 1975 in Cambridge, just as the Cambridge witness had stated. Trouble was, Rolf Harris was NOT there. HOWEVER, a member of the public (note it was NOT the police) then found a clip on Youtube of Rolf in an entirely different programme, called 'Star Games' filmed three YEARS later, in 1978.

Was the trial stopped for this to be looked into? No. Did anyone question why this witness's story was then simply moved across to fit around this film? No. She stated she was 16 when this happened, during 'It's A Knockout'. She was a waitress there. So, was she 19 then, in 1978? Or, was she 13 in 1975 and 16 in 1975? She said this episode stayed in her mind, yet she was three YEARS out and got 'It's A Knockout' muddled up with 'Star Games' ??? Did the police even CHECK with the catering firm at Star Games to see if she was on their books?

Tonya Lee had ALREADY made HER fortune before the trial even started! Scotland Yard specifically asked her NOT to go to the media. So, she did. Credible Witness??????? Once her 'evidence' was put into the public domain, via magazine articles (again, google image 'Tony Lee Magazine Article) and on TV, going on to Youtube too, that should have shut this travesty of a trial right down, instantly.

Strangely though, it did not.

Tonya also lied about her anorexia. She, and her mother, stated that Rolf's actions brought this on. No. The Defence found out that she had been under medical supervision for this since aged 11. She was 15 when she met Rolf Harris. She ALSO stated that during her time here, due to Rolf's actions, she watched herself losing weight. NO. She did not even MEET Rolf Harris until the very end of her tour! She and her friends, so The Defence uncovered, had merely loathed British food and so, had eaten very little.

She blamed the whole 'money/media' thing on her boyfriend, of course, for everything is always 'some else's fault' conveniently admitting she knows now she made a big mistake, whilst also complaining she's only received around $28,000 of the alleged $66,000 she was supposed to have been given...giving around $10,000 to her wicked ex, Fian McDaid, to make him go away. Fian had said he would expose her as having made it all up due to her being in debt.

Bindi's EX friend. Bindi stated in Court that at NO time did her ex friend mention her father had abused her from the age of 13. She claimed these allegations were ridiculous, especially the ones where her father allegedly abused her friend whilst Bindi slept close by. This woman also wrote in her diary, about the holiday where Rolf had, allegedly, first abused her, saying what a "great" time she'd had, admitting in Court to the Defence, that yes, basically she HAD had a "great" holiday. ???

She was also asked why she went anywhere NEAR Rolf again, to ask him for £25,000 as a 'donation' to a bird sanctuary, if he truly was the evil monster she'd made him out to be. She replied that he'd told her he would always help her, if ever she needed help.

She also, strangely, remained friends with Bindi, never breathing a word about the affair she was having with her father, throughout all this time and after the affair was finished (Rolf ending it). On finding out that Rolf had a new mistress though, years later, after Bindi had asked her opinion on whether she thought there was something going on. This was when she apparently called Andrea (the new mistress) an 'old cow, a bitch and ugly', then deciding to tell Bindi about the relationship with her Dad.

Of course, Bindi has been painted, by a VERY clever prosecution, as being The Mercenary Daughter, willing to say or do whatever it takes, to get her Father's Millions.

No, Bindi merely wanted to know what was happening in the future, as she was a bit overwhelmed to hear rumours of how much their estate might be worth. If you watch 'Rolf Paints His Dream' on youtube, you will hear, around 26 minutes in, Alwen, Rolf's wife, talking about her severe dyslexia and dyscalculia (number problems). MANY creative people are on this circle and it would not surprise me if Rolf is too. So, Bindi probably has TWO parents who haven't a clue about money, their fortune being run probably by accountants....SHE would be left this to sort out, on their deaths, having NO knowledge of any of it.

Alwen's not interested in money, probably Rolf neither. Wouldn't YOU have asked your parents to help get this sorted out, so that you could learn the ropes of how to handle all of this, before it's too late to be able to talk to them about it? I would. She'd been told she is the sole beneficiary, so it would ALL be on her shoulders...and 'good times with money' aside, it would have been a BIG responsibilty for her.

Now, all these 'victims' and so many are falling out of the woodwork, yet again, as with all the other cases too, will dismantle his fortune...Between their claims and legal fees, he will probably have to sell his house, (Dave Lee Travers had to do this just to pay legal fees alone, now living in a bungalow, yet with two more charges to answer as well)

Freddie Starr looks so ill and nearly took his own life. Jim Davidson lost a fortune too in legal fees, yet both have had all charges dropped, although Freddie's been charged yet again, I believe...

Meanwhile ALL the women involved here in ALL cases, have anonymity for LIFE, whilst the men's names are out in the public arena as fast as can be...their lives torn to shreds, no matter if they're guilty or innocent. This is WHOLLY wrong! The CPS, which is now run by over 60% women, say that having men's names out there is right, as it encourages other women to come forward.

They want to convict on a pattern of behaviour and if they have NO evidence to convict on, then they will do all they can to tear about a man's reputation in every way possible.

The FBI have been doing this for decades. They call it 'neutralizing' someone.

Also, you cannot judge the society which I grew up in (I'm 59) on the laws/attitudes of today's society. Rape, of course, is ALWAYS wrong, as is severe sexual abuse, but back then, men DID pinch our bottoms or wolfwhistle us, and we often did not mind at all. Yes, bum-pinching was annoying, but it did not BREAK us as women!!! Wolf whistles? Hey, I used to wave at the builders/lorry drivers, smiling at them, they smiling at me, or my friends...It was HARMLESS. Men used to open doors for us, give up their seats for us, pay for us when they took us out...but then, along came EXTREME Feminists, such as Greer, who brainwashed women into believing that this was all derogatory rubbish, men being 'demeaning' to women, treating them as 'the weaker sex' etc. NO. It was men being kind, courteous and well-mannered towards us.

In 40 years time, now that Historical Lawyers R Us have come into being, many men, perhaps women too, who are young today, may well find themselves in Court too, being accused of outrageous things which Future Society might deem highly inappropriate...

For example, the other day, I took my dog to the vet. I have large boobs, always well covered up, as I have always worn loose, discreet clothing, even when young. He was transfixed, his eyes locking on to my chest over and over again. Was I offended? NO! I actually found it very amusing, but kept my face straight. You see, I KNOW that some men simply LOVE women's boobs and find themselves almost helpless when confronted with them...(gentle smile)...but Future Women may well take a man to court for such a thing, no evidence being available of course, but the mere fact a WOMAN had said it would be enough to nail any man and put him in prison.....That COULD happen, ladies....because if you had EVER told me that a man such as Rolf Harris would be sat in prison, aged 84, with NO evidence at ALL to convict him of the crimes he's alleged to have committed, I'd have stared at you in disbelief...Yet, here we are,....

By the way, have you SEEN the video of him and Vanessa? No. It's not out there. Ask yourselves why. You see, many of the Big Breakfast Bed interviews were a bit raunchy, check out Paula Yates with Michael Hutchence, legs entwined, her hand on his crotch, or Rik Mayall, launching himself, full body, on to Liza Tarbuck. We have NO idea in what context Rolf and Vanessa were behaving at that time, and how ODD that she waited over 18 YEARS to say something, and then, ONLY saying something after the police had contacted her, because someone else had contacted them about it. Same with Linda Nolan, who would have had the combined strength of the Nolan Sisters behind her....Check her out on Youtube, her Big Brother clips, where she tells others how she has had sex with many men, ALWAYS with her husband having been there, or, screaming at Jim Davidson that HE is the reason she started to self-harm again (always someone else's fault) Many Narcissists are like this, self-harming, saying bizarre things, able to lie with total ease, believing their own lies. I know, I was married to one.

As to Rolf's affairs, well, Tom Jones openly admits to having had MANY, yet STILL he goes home to his wife of over 50 years.

My father was 17 years older than Mum, meeting her when she was 17, marrying her when she 19. He was NOT a paedophile though. He loved her to the day he died, absolutely loved her. She told me she'd never loved him, married him only to get out of her parent's home. When I was 14 she had an affair with my brother's best friend.

So, this story resonates deeply with me.

Strange things happen in families. You survive it, learn from it, move on from it.

I do not judge Rolf Harris on his affairs. He is loved by his wife of over 50 years, by his daughter too and by his many friends, who all adore him. He is incredibly kind, has inspired millions of us to paint, to learn about art, etc...and up until Ms. Sasha Wass and the CPS decided to tear him apart, limb from limb, due to having NO evidence at all, was loved by many of us around the world.

Oh..and if someone could explain to me why Mistress Number One decided to tell the court that Rolf has a 'very, very small penis', knowing this would go out around the world, I'd like to know.

If you find any evidence of his 'mysterious' gig at Leigh Park, please, let me know and I'll pass it on to Det. Sgt. Gary Pankhurst, the Yewtree Officer who spoke to The Defence and to whom I've spoken to just last week. Gary told me that he feels very bad that Rolf is in prison. I feel OUTRAGED, as you can probably guess.

Apologies for this long ramble, but there is a LOT to say!

In my view, Rolf Harris needs ALL of us to stand up for him, to start asking questions and...to get him OUT of prison so that he can be with Alwen and his daughter and grandson and animals again, left to die in peace with his family, instead of the hell he has been placed into by 4 women who will, I have no doubt, ALL be claiming from his estate VERY shortly....as will the many others who are now apparent 'victims' too.

This is interesting to read, by the way.... www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Teen-jailed-false-rape-claim-Troubled-young-woman-jailed-18-months/story-11715742-detail/story.html

SqueakySqueak · 30/07/2014 10:17

Shock Damn Lizzie. I'm genuinely curious to find out if anyone actually read all that...

Toooldtobearsed · 30/07/2014 10:38

Well, I read it all.

Very interesting reading Lizzie - but if true, then just what were his defence team being paid for? These anomalies would surely have been brought up by them? If not, why not?

You seem to be very involved in all of this and have gone to a lot of trouble to find information to support your case, but again, I ask, why did his defence team not do the same?

I am playing devils advocate here because I never for one moment believed he was guilty until he was found guilty (if that makes sense). But we do have a jury system here and they obviously had access to all of the evidence to bring in this verdict.

Will watch this with interest.

Andrewofgg · 30/07/2014 11:00

I doubt whether civil claims against RH will go far. They are way out of time and this is not like the case of the rapidt who won the lottery - RH has been rich and traceable throughout. The claims may fall at that hurdle.

I don't say that's how it should be - just that that's how it is.

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