Ex's who marry OW after a living with and fathering children with former partner..

[Sassyb0703]

My very close friend is devastated as ex partner has just told her he is marrying OW just 3 months after splitting up. Close friend always wanted to get married to ex but he didn't 'believe' in marriage when living with her. They had four children together youngest of which is 3. AIBU in thinking women who have children without marrying (if that is something the women really wants) are crazy to agree to children thinking it will change his mind ?. Apparently he has met his 'soul mate' and that has changed his mind...

I think it's sad that so many women get pressured into not asking for what they want (or indefinitely postponing what they want) because they don't want to be seen as difficult or nagging etc.

After about a year of dating I had the marriage and babies chat with my boyfriend and was very upfront about what I wanted and expected and that if he wasn't onboard then he ought to let me know.

Now I'm lucky that he had the same goals in life and the conversation didn't end badly but I had SO many people tell me I was crazy to bring it up, that it would be seen as clingy/desperate/whatever - it was like being in the 1950s again! It seems that in relationships some people still expect women to be submissive and bow down to what the man wants and never presume to question...

Maybe it's best she never married him - saves her the cost of a divorce lawyer.

I agree with this ^

She is better off alone than with someone like that.

I had the opposite issue - I have never been fussed about marriage. Ex(evil F*er)Dh said he would only have children if we were married - so I married him. Then he dithered about babies and left (for other reasons. Wasting my time as I was by then in my 30's fertility waning distraught as I felt I had lost someone I loved. By the time I found someone who I loved again (and could trust) I was told I was on the brink of menopause. Luckily I finally after a few mc conceived ds but it is unlikely I will have a 2nd which I find heart breaking.

I would take kids over marriage every time.

If I was male and really comitted to the life I was entering into, I would be pushing for marriage.

I would want PR from the moment of conception.

It is a massive trust that the Mother will put you on the BC, either that or you are playing lip service to the relationship, if the Woman wants marriage and it is you that doesn't.

Tired Initially I had the same pov as you but since listening to distraught friend over past couple of weeks I am coming around to why she feels like she was disadvantaged not to be married. I also agree that cheating fuckwits will cheat whether married or not, but she feels had she been married then walking away would not have been quite so easy. As it is he simply has to give her a cheque for cm and that's him off the hook. Sailing off into the sunset without backward glance, free to marry tomorrow if he fancies it and OW regarded in law as his one and only legitimate partner. He doesn't have to go to mediation, doesn't need to pay for a divorce lawyer, no spousal maintenance despite the fact she hasn't worked outside the home for 16 yrs. His only obligation is CM she feels like the law doesn't recognise her at all. To add insult to injury all divorced spouses are entitled to an increase on their state pension based on spouses NI contributions for the duration of the marriage, again not entitled to this as not married. Had he died when they were still together she would also not have been entitled to bereavement benefits..The more I learn about this, the more I can see all the advantages to not marrying and having children lie with the man whilst the sahm especially, gets shafted. I am of course basing this on the most common type of relationship where the mum is main carer and dad is the higher earner - but this situation effectively hugely disadvantages the sah parent /lower earner parent who is not married. ? (I think things are a little different in Scotland)

Even if you are divorced they don't pay court orders or pay the CSA, and they give up jobs, she wouldn't necessarily be better off financially if they married.

OP, your freind has been let down by a horrible prick.

My views on marriage are ambivalent. I believe it's unneccessary if both parties don't care. I certainly have friends who are in fully commited relationships without being married.

However, where a woman wants to be married, but her partner refuses, I would be very very wary. I certainly would no advise that woman to plough on having DC with that man without fully investigating his reasoning. And he doesn't 'beleive in it' simply does not cut it!

Even if they were married his only obligation would be child maintenance, courts don't always award spousal maintenance, and it don't think they should either.

Women are in charge of themselves, and if they want to become SAHMs, married or not, then they need to a cote that they have next to no financial security.

Wanting him to have to pay for a divorce lawyer or pointless mediation is just spiteful, albeit possibly understandably in the circumstances, especially considering that she would have to pay for a divorce lawyer too.

Marriage is incredibly important to me, that's why I'm married, but I had children with my ex and we weren't married. If we had been, it would have just caused extra stress and hurt that neither of us needed. He's still a very committed parent to our children and is a supportive co parent to me, marriage would have made no difference.

The problem here isn't the lack of marriage, it's the lack of financial security your friend has. And that is completely a result of her own choices, she has no one else to blame.

Thank you all for your input on this one,it's been lovely to have an adult discussion with some great insights into the situation. It's obviously a lot easier to discuss this issue when slightly removed from the rl goings on, which quite frankly are heartbreaking, so came on MN to get some dispassionate objective opinion. It boils down to what the pp said though. We are all ultimately responsible for our life choices. If marriage is something you want then don't be afraid/shamed/worried to state what you want. If s/he is committed enough to make babies then he should be equally respectful of your wishes, if he doesn't understand that then he's probably not a good bet. On the financial front I do think the state pension laws need looking at though...you could be living with someone for their whole working life and be entitled to a full state pension based on their stamp if married and not a single penny if not. I do think a lot of cohabiting mothers/fathers may be disastrously unaware of how unprotected they are by law .

Women can pay their own 'stamp' even without being married I think. I know my Mum did, but it may have changed.

If women want a full state pension they should pay full contributions in this day and age, not just be tacked onto their partners. If they choose to allow their partner to pay it for them then that's up to them, but is really think the days of women relying on men for their financial stability and security need to be long gone. We can't expect to have equality if we still expect to be able to contribute nothing financially and have the same end result.

Woowoo I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed re women working and paying for their own pensions, my concern is that a women married to partner who makes decision to stay home to raise their children is entitled to a large percentage of their husbands state pension to cover the period of the entire marriage if they divorce, cohabiting partners are not entitled to anything. The point I was making is that as things stand in law at present a dp is entitled to very little in the eyes of the law not even regarded as next of kin or have any automatic inheritance rights. I just think a lot of dps think living together is almost the same as marriage but as my df has sadly discovered nothing could be further from the truth.. in fact her ex shit face partner was fond of telling her that he didn't believe in marriage and that it wasn't important as only a piece of paper. Not important for him obviously made walking away a piece of cake

I think between 1/4 and 1/3 of pregnancies are accidental.

So it's not that women 'choose' to have babies before marriage but that they are in a relationship, she gets pg, they decide to continue but the marriage issue doesn't come up.

Or if it does and she wants to but he doesn't she can hardly leave the father of her child for that reason alone.

I said I wouldn't live with a boyfriend again unless properly engaged but once I'd had dd I felt that I couldn't refuse to let DP move in.

I doubt if we'll ever marry but actually that suits my personal circumstances anyway.

Unfortunately for some people children are less of a commitment than a marriage.

While I agree it would be more difficult for your friend now if she was married to the arse, if she had decided to wait and get married my bet would be it would never have happened and hopefully she would have realised this and left to have a fulfilling relationship elsewhere.

I agree with TheWord, if neither want to get married - no problem. If you do and he doesn't you need to consider his actions as well as his words before deciding to have children with him.

I too know of several relationships where women (in these cases) have brought up families unmarried only to be dumped along the way.

I haven't lived in the UK for a few years but I thought that your stamp was paid if you claimed child benefit?

wally that is still true, it's called home responsibility payment which is a credit applied to your state pension account that reduces the number of years you need to have paid in for, to get a 'full' pension. Applies to anyone for period they are in receipt of child Ben or carers allowance, but it is not the same as the huge difference in state pension paid to a woman who divorces after a long marriage having spent the majority of working life looking after children versus the exact same scenario but without the actual marriage . Having investigated further, it can be as much as nothing for cohabiting but now seperated partner and £200 pw in a non means tested state pension..that's a lot of money throughout retirement....

That's very disappointing isn't it, definitely need to keep your own safety net if you are an unmarried SAHM mum then.

I hope your friend can find strength and move on from this.

If you receive child benefit for a child under 12, you get credits. If your friend has 4 children, I would assume that there is at least 8 years between the top and the bottom, so she should get 20 years of credits as a minimum. You need 30 years for a full state pension, so she only needs to have worked for 10 years at some point between the ages of 18 and 68 to qualify for a full pension in her own right. I doubt she will be left with nothing, but it's still a thoroughly crap situation.

That man is not a catch, your friend should be glad to get rid. He will do the same to his new wife, once a cheater always a cheater. I know it's a cliche but sadly very often true.

@Chunder I know common law marriage is a legal nonsense - we're in a slightly unusual position regarding property and so on and have both taken steps to make sure we're sorted if one of us is eaten by wolves or whatever ... I really meant from an emotional point of view a real live human with both your genes is a bigger tie than a party and a big dress.

I really do understand what everyone is saying about women being able to earn their own pensions, I think I have maybe expressed my point poorly. I started this thread because of a df being dumped by her partner who has just announced that he is getting married to OW three months after meeting, despite fathering 4 children with df and knowing that she had always wanted to be married but accepting shitfaces argument that he didn't 'believe' in it and the favourite line of ' a ring and a piece of paper doesn't make any difference '... This has lead to some interesting rl conversations re the merit of cohabitation and marriage. It has left me quite shocked with regard to the enormous disparity between the two especially in law and from financial pov. I am not arguing the relative merits of women earning their own pensions just the shocking difference that a marriage then divorce certificate makes to two identical couples where in fact 'a ring and a piece of paper' makes a huge difference. Pensions, inheritance,being legally recognised as next of kin (and the right to make life changing decisions) property rights, etc. Apologies if you guys knew all this but until my df went through this awful trauma neither of us realised what a huge disadvantage not being married was. (we had both naively assumed that common law wife status actually existed and came with certain 'rights' especially if you have had 4 dc with twat face)

Sassy I really feel for your friend but if he's enough of a tosser to do what he's done and ditch her and their children do you really think being married would have stopped him?