to think that expecting Y9 to collaborate like adults is asking a bit much?

[oneofthegiantsisme]

DD's year is doing a project which means they are put into groups and asked to develop business ideas (theoretical, not to be put into practice).

I completely understand the logic behind it, that they're trying to give the kids the business understanding/team working/negotiation skills which employers want in school-leavers, but I can't help thinking that at 14, they simply don't have the emotional maturity to do this successfully. It means being dispassionate about ideas, being prepared to let go of your own ideas and accept someone else's (even if you don't like the ideas or the person), arguing your case without being personal or taking others' comments personally - all of which can be pretty tricky even for adults.

At their age, it seems to be just turning into a popularity contest, which can be rather demoralising for the less popular kids (like DD ). There are plenty of staff involved, but it doesn't sound like they are taking a sufficiently active role in guiding the youngsters. The result, from my point of view, is I now have a very stressed DD who isn't sleeping and is convinced she "can't do people".

Surely it's never too young to learn effective teamwork. Guides/scout/DofE all do this type of exercise at this sort of age.

Oh dear. I can see the theory but it does sound very badly managed. Poor dd.

Can you talk to the teachers about the specific problems and how stressful dd is finding it?

I'm all for them learning teamwork, but putting up a tent together is a different ball game from developing product ideas, marketing and pricing strategy.

I don't think they're learning a great deal if it descends to arguments about whether or not a particular piece of paper should go in the folder or be thrown out.

Maybe they just need a teacher sitting with each group to manage the discussions - if they're supposed to be learning, they may need a bit more help than just being left to get on with it.

They do this from Y9 upward's and bring's the kid's out of themselves, a word with the teacher should put things back on track.

I've visited schools to talk about my work and participate in days like this. It works to varying degrees depending in the school, the kids and the group they are put in.
It is pitched for the appropriate level, it's more about general thinking eg what do I need to think about if I'm marketing this (fictitious) item, how can I make my product stand out compared to others, etc
I used to be a sceptic but having seen it in action, I think it's a gold opportunity to think about how you might be an entrepreneur, what you might have to do in the world of work or even just thinking creatively and non academically and doing teamwork in a work context.

I think the issue here is more how the staff are doing it than the actual task, I've run projects like this with young people aged between 8 and 18 (not at the same time obviously) and even when we've put the business ideas into practice they have worked really well and learned a lot, but I had to work really hard on confidence building and making sure it didn't become a popularity contest, which it sounds like the staff there aren't doing. it's a shame because run properly it can be a really valuable experience, especially for the shy, less popular kids.

Sorry OP but this is ridiculous. Every school worth it's salt runs stuff like this on a regular basis. We do it from year seven up. No, your DD probably can't do people but engaging in these activities will help her develop these skills. There is little point in schools only doing things that are firmly within their student's comfort zone, they'll learn nothing that way.

But for your daughter, definitely have a word with the teacher

How do I tackle it with the teacher without seeming critical?

just say to the teacher that you are worried that DD is becoming very stressed with this project and could they look into it and see what they can suggest, with luck that'll mean they keep a closer eye and spot the issues themselves and deal with it so you won't be criticising, just asking advice.

I thought this sort of thing was usual from certainly juniors onwards.

When I used to help with year 2, the group I was looking after was asked to do a non fiction book. They discussed topics, voted on it, agreed who did which page, and sorted it. The only thing I did was write down their conclusions, and told them how well they were doing. At no point did I have to step in and pull rank to stop anything untoward. There were arguments (2 of the girls wanted to do the same page, for example) but they managed to solve it themselves. (the girls did 2 joint pages).
They made a fantastic book and were very proud of themselves.

My DD is in year 6 - without teacher initiation her and a group of friends have set up a company to make Loom bands and sell them at the Summer Fair, most of the money is going to Cancer Research. This isn't even her first enterprise (the first was probably the Cake Sale in year 4).
Every year in secondary, each year group chooses a charity and runs a week of events to raise money for it.
Then in year 10 they do a wholesale market a product project. In Sixth form they can actually produce and market a product as part of the enrichment/enterprise curriculum.

They have been practising Group working since year 3 at least, including working on joint projects.

Maybe they have left it a bit late for your DD. But honestly even pupils with very limited social skills have coped with such projects really well. Maybe your DD actually has problems with failure and/or collaboration.
I have never seen them become popularity contests either.

My son had to do similar in year seven. They had to pitch their idea to external "Dragons" and answer questions from them. On stage in the school hall! This doesn't sound too much to me...

My dd could do this now aged 10, but I agree its difficult in a school situation where classroom politics can come into it.
I agree that a lot of what they are trying to teach here can be gained through groups outside school through various activities.
I suppose school do this as some dc wouldn't get this opportunity and experience elsewhere.

They will never learn the skills they need to promote themselves and work as part of a team if they aren't given the opportunity to until they are in employment and find themselves clueless.

I think you are being oversensitive.

The ones who are more forceful with their ideas need to learn that it's important to listen to everyone's ideas and the quieter ones need the opportunity to stick up for themselves.

My ds's school does work like this after the exams have finished, and I think it's really good for them, especially as my ds is one of the quiet ones who will happily let others decide wheats happening and then go along with it. I'd hate for his first experience of this to be in the real world rather than a school environment.

I expect the majority of children are benefiting and getting a lot out if it, they can't scrap projects that the majority learn from to protect the sensitivities of the small minority. There is always room for more guidance and support with work in schools, but the state just cannot provide personally tailored education for every single child.

My 9 year old has just done that

Just had a thought - any time the charity I volunteer with that organises these days they ask the teachers to pick groups rather than the kids get into groups themselves, as that could be what happened here. When they choose their own there are queen bees etc, whereas being out in a group with a more diverse range of people/non friends tends to sort that out.

YABU the primary school DD is going into now sells fruit at break as one of their older years noticed that people kept forgetting snacks so the class was tasked with setting it up as a business including finding suppliers, costing etc. Thats primary!

Maybe speak to the teacher about how your DD is feeling and how to deal with it.

I agree with everyone else that the task itself isn't a problem - group projects like this can be a great way of developing skills and I think students benefit from some independence. Sometimes being given the opportunity to try things out and risk failure is very valuable.

But if there is a group with a poor dynamic then the children in it might need some help to develop the skills they need. If they are just arguing the whole time then they aren't really learning.

I would ask the teacher if someone can sit with the group and guide them in a conversation about how the project is going and see if they can come up with their own ideas about how to agree (e.g. everyone has 1 minute to put a point across and then they vote or whatever). Just say your DD is getting upset and it seems those students needs some help with the group dynamic or something.

Year 9 is a great age for this type of task. They should have done group projects in previous years and by now be making more mature decisions.

I'm sorry your DD is not enjoying it, but it is a good skill to develop. Did they choose their own groups, or were they put into groups? It could be that she is with some forceful personalities, so a word with the teacher could mean that the ring leaders are reminded to encourage all to participate.

As well as teaching at secondary, I also run a girl guide unit. My 10 yr olds work together to make decisions and organise whole events themselves (with our support) so YABU in terms of age being a factor. However YWNBU to have a word with the teacher about how they can help boost DD's confidence in participating.

Our school do this from Primary 3 onwards! Theybput the kids into groups without teacher supervision and give them tasks to do - a presentation, a report etc. it's up to them to work out how to approach it, delegate tasks and how to report back etc. it's sometime challenging for them but they seem to learn pretty quickly how to co-operate with each other for the purpose of the task. So if I've got it right and Year 9 is about age approx 12/13 then I think they should easily be capable of that.

I'd ask 'which teacher is sitting with them being the Margaret/Karen/Nick to keep an eye on the students?'

If you end up being put with a group made up of one big-headed bossy-boots and half a dozen others who don't want to know, can't be bothered and couldn't care less, then it is a big ask.

Its a great exercise - when it's managed properly, if there are students feeling like your DD feels then it's not being managed properly.

Speak to school, it could be that the teacher isn't aware of how your DD feels. Absolutely terrible if the teacher hasn't realised, but it needs addressing. I hope your DD gets some enjoyment from the project soon.

DD1's school do this in y10, with adults mentoring 1 or 2 teams each helping keep them on track. The winning 2 teams out of 20 then get to put their ideas into practice - and keep the profits!