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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To be quite upset by this ... death by careless driving

53 replies

Justnotimaginitive · 23/06/2014 16:08

Just over a yr ago someone I know was run over and killed whilst doing his job which is a Lolly pop man.

The person driving the car said they couldn't see because the sun was in their eyes.
They drove for 220 metres which is approximately 30.seconds when they couldn't see, this was not momentary blindness by the sun btw 220 metres is quite far.

So I think this is careless driving, however a lot people seem to think.because she she has to live with this for the rest of her live that is enough and she isn't quilty.

As it happends the case has been dropped due to 2 discharged jury's who couldn't agree either.
I was at the hearings I heard the evidence and still think.she is guilty.

I personally think if it had been a child, pregnant woman she had hit, or infact if she had been a 21 yr old man then she would have been found guilty. Am I unreasonable for thinking this ?

Please be gentle this is quite close to.my heart he was an amazing person and missed so much.

OP posts:

SteeleyeSpanx · 23/06/2014 17:46

From a legal perspective, the difficulty with these cases is the lack of mens rea (guilty mind)

For most criminal prosecutions, you have to have intended to do what you did to meet the legal test for the offence. So for murder, you must have intended to actually kill the person, or to cause them really serious harm. Unless the prosecution can demonstrate that you did, then you cannot be guilty of murder.

With cases in which death has been cause by either careless or dangerous driving, the person really had no intention at all to cause harm, and is generally of good character and it is often a first offence.

Tbh, little good will come of imprisonment.

SteeleyeSpanx · 23/06/2014 17:48

I just wish she was being held accountable for her actions.

I see where you are coming from, but one life has been lost, and a family' ruined. Why would you want to ruin another person's life too? How will that benefit anyone?

maddy68 · 23/06/2014 17:53

It has been to court where ALL THE FACTS were analysed. The jury have considered the case and given a result. The fact remains that the driver does have to live with this for the rest of their lives, I'm sue it wasn't intentional so it must be a horrific burden to bear.
You are grieving because this happened to you friend so it is difficult to be objective.

needaholidaynow · 23/06/2014 18:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HappyAgainOneDay · 23/06/2014 18:15

Working out some maths please ignore if I'm wrong, driving at 30 mph means 1 mile in 1 minute. That means 1/2 a mile in half a minute = 30 seconds which the driver is said to have done. Half a mile of not being able to see? Even at 15 mph it would have been 1/4 mile which is rather a long way past an 'incident'.

kentishgirl · 23/06/2014 18:21

What if she said she'd shut her eyes for 30 seconds while driving. any different?

WaveorCheer · 23/06/2014 18:22

My beloved grandma died in a similar incident.

morethanpotatoprints · 23/06/2014 18:24

Hello OP, a similar thing happened to our old lollypop man. It was a parent rushing to work, she didn't give a flying fig at the time.
Yes they have to live with it for the rest of their lives, but she too got off with it and many said the same. If it was a young lad or elderly person who had done it, many more questions about their ability would have been asked.
I'm so sorry, it will take the community some time to recover, especially the children and of course his family.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 23/06/2014 18:24

30 seconds is a long time.

I'm really sorry for your loss, it must be really tough having to witness these court cases whilst grieving.

TheSarcasticFringehead · 23/06/2014 18:35

Not being able to see because of the sun and not doing anything about it is the same as if I was driving and closed my eyes for 30secs, or covered the windscreen for 30secs. If you can't see clearly, you slow down and stop because 30 seconds is all it takes for an accident to happen, it's a long time for driving.

LucilleBluth · 23/06/2014 18:39

I think it's enough she has to live with it, imaging lying in bed at night thinking about what you've done....it must be hell.

At the end of the day we are all driving around in death machines and accidents will happen, it's up to society to guard against this by using speed limits, seat belts etc.

AgaPanthers · 23/06/2014 18:48

No, it's up to individuals not to bloody well run people over.

Most accidents are the result of shit driving.

Darksideofthemoon88 · 23/06/2014 18:49

I really can't believe the amount of people on here feeling sorry for the driver! She caused the collision through her own carelessness and poor judgement, and she deserves not one iota of sympathy. The car is the most lethal weapon most of us legally have access to. We need to wake up and realise this instead of being so blase. A man lost his life here. Would you be so sympathetic if she'd 'accidentally' discharged a shotgun? To hell with her sleepless nights. Hopefully they'll inspire her to drive more carefully in future.

IfYouCouldSeeMeNow · 23/06/2014 18:54

If she pulled out from a side Road onto a main road, and couldn't see, how could she have pulled over safely?

She couldn't. And she'd probably cause a pile up.

I'm sorry for your friend, OP. Nothing will ever feel like enough, because nothing will bring him back, but your memories would do him proud.

AgaPanthers · 23/06/2014 18:59

A pile-up? On a 30mph residential road? It's not the M25 you know. People pull over all the time, you pull over to let people out, pick people up, it's easy.

Why do people make so many excuses for killers, when they are in cars?

GoblinLittleOwl · 23/06/2014 19:25

I know this case and I think the defence is genuine; at certain times of the year, with low lying sun, it is impossible to see, with or without sunglasses and sun visor down; the sun is actually painful to the eyes. I drive as slowly as possible when this happens, but I don't know what the answer is, until sun resistant windscreens are designed. The fact that two juries were unable to convict means that they were aware of the difficulties, and has nothing to do with the fact that the casualty was an Old Age Pensioner.

mummymeister · 23/06/2014 19:44

flame me but I have really strong views on this. a car is a dangerous weapon. if you drive over the limit or drunk or when you cant see because of the sun then I am sorry don't bloody drive. only yesterday, driving early evening the sun dazzled as I drove west. I stopped the car. that's what the brake is for. trouble is too many people are in too much of a hurry and don't think about the consequences. sure the driver has to live with it. and so she should. and if he was my dad, I would be outside her house every day with a banner with his picture on. it just makes me mad, car drivers get away with murder literally. if the woman had a shotgun and was spraying bullets around for 30 seconds because she couldn't see, she would have been locked up.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 23/06/2014 19:45

I actually think a lot of people guilty of this sort of thing don't actually spend forever beating themselves up. The human brain has a fairly horrible way of rationalising stuff like this away. She and her family may well have convinced themselves it wasn't her fault. I've even seen people utterly convinced it was the victim's fault.

They have choice to accept the carnage they wrought, or to carry on with life the way it was - and they often choose the easy option.

SteeleyeSpanx · 23/06/2014 19:50

I guess the reason I have sympathy is because we know that roads are dangerous places, people drive like idiots and some even drive drunk.

We know that whenever we do anything involving roads, either as a driver, a pedestrian, and perhaps more than anything else as a lollypop man/woman, that we are taking a risk with our lives.

This is why I have sympathy with both sides here.

Pagwatch · 23/06/2014 19:53

Yep. If you want to kill someone, do it with a car.

Years ago my SIL in law was killed by a man over taking coming at her on the wrong side of the road.
He hit her car so hard she ended up upside down in a ditch.
She died. Underneath her and fully conscious was her sister - trapped by the wreckage and the weight of her body.
My nephew was in the back. He suffered brain damage.

The man drove on and left them there.
He got a fine.
My nephew is now an adult - his whole life blighted.

I don't believe for a moment that man suffered with the knowledge of what he did.
I think that's bollocks. I think they forgive themselves and move right along.
Nothing's changed.

SteeleyeSpanx · 23/06/2014 20:01

The UK actually has the some of the safest roads in the world. We need to accept that nothing is perfect and actually, the slightly imperfect system we enjoy is a lot better than many other countries have to put up with.

specialsubject · 23/06/2014 20:07

I drive, but I would not drive with my eyes shut for 30 seconds. (or at all).

if the sun is in your eyes and you can't see - guess what? YOU STOP. The planet will move in a few minutes and the problem will go away. You can wait a few minutes.

I do not go there by the grace of god. I do not go there because I would not dream of doing that.

so has she walked with not so much as a fine and points?

may she suffer. And may she at least have the decency to hand in her licence.

AgaPanthers · 23/06/2014 20:08

"The UK actually has the some of the safest roads in the world. We need to accept that nothing is perfect and actually, the slightly imperfect system we enjoy is a lot better than many other countries have to put up with."

We also have quite low rape stats, cancer, and whatever else, doesn't mean we have to put up with them.

lougle · 23/06/2014 20:12

The maths doesn't add up here.

220 metres is 1/7 of a mile. For it to have taken 30 seconds to travel that distance, she must have been traveling at 15mph.

If she was traveling at 24mph it would take 20.5 seconds, and at 28mph, it would take 18 seconds.

It might be seen as nitpicking, but I think that overestimating the time traveled by almost double is a huge inaccuracy and would really have a negative effect on the jurors.

I feel sorry for the family of the man who was killed. Desperately sorry. I also feel sorry for the person behind the wheel.

My cousin was killed by a drunk driver. £50 fine, he paid.

SteeleyeSpanx · 23/06/2014 20:20

We also have quite low rape stats, cancer, and whatever else, doesn't mean we have to put up with them.

I do see your point, but I have to say I disagree. Being alive is risky in and of itself. I think we would just be better off accepting that bad things happen to people who don't deserve them and trying to find some peace in that understanding.

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