AIBU to not understand why some people seem to have an absolute hatred for rich people in this country.

[Barbierella]

I cannot understand why people find it acceptable to slate rich people as if they are all the same and responsible for all that is wrong in society.

Surely people can understand that many rich people do pay tax and generally are an asset to society? And without the many successful businesses in the private sector we would not have a public sector?

AIBU to think that people who like to lump all rich people into one tax avoiding bunch of tossers can be the very same people who get outraged at the lumping of all out of work people as benefit scroungers?

Neither are ok in IMO.

So if they pay all their taxes its ok?

Like Starbucks?
And Amazon?

They pay all the taxes they are required to under UK law.

Do you REALLY think that because the rich pay some tax (and invest an awful lot more in aggressive tax avoidance schemes) that they are immune from criticism?

The sixth form debating team is shaking its head sadly at this point and backing away.

but no one is suggesting that people who invest in aggressive tax avoidance schemes should be immune from criticism.........

anyway talking about The Rich is a wrong as talking about The Poor.

I am talking about rich emloyed individuals who pay up to 45 percent of their income in tax. Then get slagged off as they are swept into the likes of tax evaders.
I am saying it is not ok to tar all rich people with the same brush just as it is not ok to say all immigrants are on benefits.
But hey according to some it's ok to bash people simply because they are rich regardless of how much they pay in.

Spero do you really believe "the rich" all invest money in tax avoidance schemes or just some?
Please don't generalize.

You are confusing two things - on an individual level there are folk who are living useful productive lives and getting well paid for it/have income from investments/inherited money. I know a few people like this all of whom are normal likeable people.

But on a macro level - talking about how we as a nation decide to look after our most vulnerable (don't forget most benefits claimants are in work, most of our welfare bill is the payment of state pensions) and there is terrible inequality. And I think that banging on about how the tax system is 'unfair' to high earners is really missing the point.The fact is that money buys you a safe dignified life in this country and they should be an option fur everyone regardless of income.

op - I am saying that ALL rich people are insulated to some degree from the sheer nastiness and grind that poverty brings.

and it would be better if they were a little more aware of their good fortune, a little more of the time and didn't simply dismiss any disquiet about how we organise our society (badly) as 'jealousy - pure and simple'.

I agree we need great equality, but how do you achieve it? I am in reality, not socialist phantasy land.

And moaning about paying taxes is probably the single most infuriating example of how 'rich' people just do not appreciate what they have.

You should be bloody grateful you are in a position to be asked to pay 40% tax.

If you don't like that, there is a simple solution. Stop earning above the taxable thresholds.

We will never achieve 'equality'. I am not that naive or stupid.

People are not equal and life isn't fair.

but what I think we are entitled to investigate is how we make the current inequalities less dangerous.

All children should have the right to a good school within walking distance of their home. Your right to a decent education should not depend on your parents being rich enough to send you to a private school or rich enough to pay the inflated house prices in the catchment areas of the 'good schools'.

that's just one example. There are many more.

good god...

I agree we need greater equality, but how do you achieve it? I mean in reality, not socialist phantasy land.

People are people, some good some bad

Keeping with the school example, we end the mantra of 'choice' in schools - which is utterly meaningless for anyone who can't afford a car for eg. Concentrate funds and efforts on making all schools 'good' schools - which probably means supporting teachers more to remove disruptive pupils, investing more in pupil referral units etc.

thats just one thing i can think of.

We get less relaxed about 'people being filthy rich' and act on corruption and criminal behaviour in the financial sector as well. We don't permit bonuses to be paid to bankers who nearly destroyed their banks and are now owned solely or partly by the tax payer.

And we do NOT privatise child protection services and let the futures of vulnerable children be decided by organisations run for profit.

I am not a socialist.

I just don't want to live in a society where a large minority of people are miserable and therefore dangerous. Someone famous said that, I will see if I can google it.

I don't agree that people despise the rich purely for being rich, I certainly don't and don't know anyone who does.

What I believe people dislike is the behaviour of the rich, ostentatious parading of wealth is seen as a slap in the face to those struggling. The behaviour of the top bankers earning mega money prior to the crash was ugly to say the least and they don't seem to have adopted any humility since.

If you want to be served in a restaurant, or want someone to clean your house for you, then value them and what they do. The arrogance of some very rich people is stomach churning.

The lack of social mobility is a real problem, people feel they have no opportunity to move upwards and that breeds resentment. I lived in an extremely wealthy Country, everyone was supremely motivated to 'better themselves' for the benefit of themselves and their families, people aspired to be wealthier. Interestingly, the tax rate in that Country was a flat rate of 30%, irrespective of income, everybody paid it, the penalties for attemting to avoid it were draconian, but there was no 'flashing' your wealth, and no job was looked down on.

My pet hate is the vacous celebrities, footballers, etc., particularly when they berate and guilt trip the rest of the public into supporting their latest charitable cause.

I support more being spent of education and child welfare. its the main way I can see to reduce inequality.

the other way being to enforcing employment law - especially employing someone under NMW. (1) increase fine for employing someone without checking employment status (2) close loopholes that allow e.g. carers to be paid under NMW.

But, youaremyfavouritewasteoftime, what you say would only apply if we lived in a meritocracy, which we certainly do not. Look at the current Cabinet; I would argue that it is a prime example of endogamy, with the overwhelming majority being male, white, upper-class Etoners (please note, I have nothing against that, I just doubt that all the best and brightest in this country fit that description). Was George Osborne really given the position of Chancellor through merit and ability (see amazing qualifications such as his 2nd in Modern History or something like that), or did he get the job because he is Cameron's old friend and godfather to his children?

How many people have to struggle through life, despite amazing intellect, talent etc, just because they are unable to make use of their abilities because of their background? How many people (ref this thread, ha ha, www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2106163-Incompetents-on-huge-pay-do-you-know-any), hold positions that they do not have the skills or competence for, but they know the right people or their face fits the job, so they got it?

I don't begrudge anyone large sums of money they have earned. Or if you're born into wealth, that's an accident of birth.

It's what you do with it that counts and there are too many tax dodging cunts out there. Too many hedge fund managers messing with the system for their own gain. I know that sounds childish. But I wouldn't want your millions if I knew they were ill gotten. I'd rather be able to sleep at night.

It just should not be possible that some people have way, way more than they'll ever need while others can't pay for the things they need for basic subsistence. I don't know what the answer is but I find it hard to believe that massive gap in wealth doesn't stick in any socially minded person's throat.

And the thread has really moved on since I started typing

'jealousy' is a very lazy dismissal of peoples views - pretty poor analysis

It's also assumes those people who object to tax avoidance or rich people behaving badly are all poor and seething with jealous rage - flip side - if you were rich you'd find it acceptable

it's not true

it's not wealth it's behaviour that people judge

upthehairy I don't waste time focusing on Cameron et al. yes some people by pass the system but if it wasn't that bunch of wankers it would just be another bunch.

left or right there are very few non wankers.

tis politics.

spero I'm chuckling at people being "asked" to pay 40% tax through PAYE. It's not exactly a question is it.

And not everyone gets tax allowance. Once you earn over £100k you gradually lose your tax allowance, effectively getting taxed at 60% on the next 15k. Then paying tax on every penny you earn. Yes, I'm sure you can't imagine someone on this salary crying into their cornflakes over it but they also won't get a penny in benefits or tax credits and are less likely to take from the pot (healthcare and education as two simple examples). T

I find it irritating when people spout about tax and they clearly don't know much about it.

" man in a womans world" When you look at it this way and then go and watch some of the tv shows like 'benefits street' where you see money being thrown at layabouts left right and centre, it's easy to see why the 'rich' decide they want to employ some clever accountants and reduce their tax bills

Thankyou man That has let me in nicely.

For yours and OPs benefit ......just off the top of my head.

Benefits Street.
We All Pay Your Benefits.
Benefits Britain. Life on the Dole.
Benefit Claimants and Proud.
Britains Benefit Tenants.
How to Get A Council House.
The Trouble with Mobility Scooters (tomorrow night on BBC1)

I await your list of the same amount of programmes that berate rich people , with bated breath OP.

Hi Compo ....totally agree.

Darkest eyes
Why are you posted that for my benefit I don't know. I totally agree that programs like that are terrible for making people make assumptions about all people on benefits.
My OP is about the irony of people moaning (rightly so) about the generalization of the poor then generalising about the rich.

I don't have DC but ive seen enough threads on here to know that a lot of schools have their priorities wrong. I remember fellow pupils being bullied at school for being poor.
Today we also have a monopoly on expensive school uniform which parents are struggling to pay (£56 for a blazer) schools insist everyone dresses the same so that the difference between the "poorer kids" and the "richer kids" isn't obvious but then forget this little fact when they ask for money for school trips/open days/non uniform days etc and then by leaving out the kids whose parents cant pay they ARE treating them differently due to income. Mixed messages abound and a bit gaslighty too.

I am saying that ALL rich people are insulated to some degree from the sheer nastiness and grind that poverty brings

none of the rich and wealthy people I know were born rich, they all knew a degree of poverty or working class back ground, all have done menial jobs, chicken plucking, labouring and so on.

None of them got lucky and all have worked hard for what they have.