To be fuming that DS got a level 3b in his Y5 SATS reading...

[pippiLS]

…and that his form teacher thinks that this is somehow my fault!!

Some background info: DS had all L3s at KS1, is hoping to get into one of the best Grammar schools in the country (maybe we need to rethink this) and is reading (with me), A Brief History of Time at the moment (just to give you an idea of his reading level). He loves science and is very well informed about material far beyond the curriculum at this level yet he has also performed poorly on his Science SATs paper. Oh, and one last thing, he got 100% in one of his maths papers.

Have arranged meeting with Head and form teachers but not sure what on earth to say. He joined this school in Y5, so just this year (it's a middle school). His final report from his previous school in Y4 was all 4as.

An hour every night of the holidays is too much. You're sounding very stressed by this. If he doesn't read questions properly then is reading Harry Potter to him going to help. Maybe he should read what he's interested in.

I feel under pressure to help him to get in

Who from?

Actually, I don't think an hour's practise a day on week days during the holidays is necessarily too much. However, if he's working at level 6 in Maths he won't need to do much, just a bit of practise on the actual papers. It does sound as if the verbal reasoning might be his downfall- and that improves hugely with practice.

I would back off the reading together thing unless he really, really enjoys it. Let him read what he wants.

And work hard on bigging up the local school. That's important.

Pippi - it is just luck, it really is. Some of the premium SSs like Tiffins have more than 1000 kids applying. All of them will be very high achievers, the ones who get in will have been lucky on the day, the ones who don't won't magically stop being high achievers. Those who go instead to local comps will still do very well, because the good thing about having a lone SS with a wide reach is that no single local school will be disproportionately affected. There will still be viable 'top sets' especially as many high achievers won;t even have bothered applying. The best thing you can do for him and you is to give it a go, do a moderate amount of practice if you feel i is appropriate, and just regard it as a punt, a longshot. That way, you will be able to handle damage limitation better if it doesn't work out. And always have a plan B that is realistic and that you can feel happy about.

Hakluyt - mine would have gone on strike! although I suppose they do do a fair bit of music practise in the holidays that other kids might not do, which probably counts as 'working' in their eyes (even though I often offer to let them just give up, I'd be really fine with it if they did, music is just one huge money pit)

Mine too, Herc- but I know that's what most people do. And realistically, most kids don't get in without some practise. And the OP's son seems to have areas that need a bit of work, although frankly I can't quite work out what they are...........

Op just got my dtwins results.One 5s so will get a stab at 6s the other high 4s so perhaps not. Lower boy imvho is slightly brighter at some things but a lot less driven.Have been doing a few 11+ mocks,both doing well in them and pretty much the same.Lower boy actually tends to get higher in the mathsand both get high 80s and 90s in the VR(depending on how knackered they are).

I wouldn't put much stock in Sats tbf.

That said obviously they're not in though.

You do need to big up the alternative and down play the GS.Ours will be really happy either way,they've just had a taster day for the alternative and loved it.

Well, by the sound of things, English and maths. A lot of SS hopefuls are working at L6 in maths at the end of Y5. And the english thing - if they are evaluating creative writing even only as a tie break, then things like vocabulary and higher skills will come into play. There really is nothing better for developing those than wide reading.

I do think that what people think they are practising, and what benefit they are actually getting, are two different things. Speed is a massive factor, and timed tests in whatever will probably have a more positive impact on speed and timing than they do on maths VR or Comprehension knowledge or skills. Getting used to leaving the questions you can't do and pressing on with those you can, then going back if there;s time, is something that doesn't come easily to all 10 year olds. I suspect - but don't know - that people think the value from 'doing maths practise' say is learning how to do algebra or read graphs or whatever, and that actually, the value is in practising doing a test, any test, to time. But obviously I may be being completely daft. My girls are odd and what worked for them may easily not work for anyone else.

You need to find out the marking system,should be on their website.The girls near us goes mostly in VR and you only need 50% in Eng and maths.Clearly in that situation focusing on the VR is crucial.

The boys by contrast goes on an amalgamation of all 3(with an emphasis on VR) so as high as you can in all is best.

I can't trawl through all these messages but ...really? Are you serious ?
Actually I take that back ; I am going to trawl through these posts to see if there's some like minded normal parents on mn too .

Retro, it's 50% English and 50% Maths and both of these papers have elements of reasoning - NVR in Maths and VR in English.

Did you get the bottom of the levels?

I'd be spitting tacks regardless of 11+ to be honest.

Retro, he stalled on a paper, getting side tracked into the science of the question (he loves science).

I just don't get how any self-respecting teacher gathers any progress data from what was essentially a mishap/blip.

He doesn't really feel as if his teachers are on his side. He feels talked down to and as if they are always over-simplifying things. There isn't much challenge and he loves a challenge which is why I think he will thrive in a selective environment.

Ok, I'll say it if no one else will - judging from your last post, I think you both have a bit of an attitude problem with regard to his teachers. I hope for his sake that he gets into the school you want him to go to, otherwise his teachers are going to end up being blamed every time something goes wrong for him at school

I really would ditch the SATS completely and do practice papers for the entrance exam.

Enough time to feed the SATS obsession next year.

My DSs really did not engage with Yr 6 and couldn't wait to leave. There was nothing but practising for SATS and then the tests themselves. Such a shame.

By October they results for the entrance exams were in, and the school lost them with the SATS. They all performed, but took no pleasure from it, and didn't learn anything.

Tbh at ours I presume there is teacher assessment too towards the in between years ie not just giving levels based on one assessment.

Is that correct?

OP you sound like you don't actually want to hear what the school have to say about how your son is doing, but have an idea in your own mind that he is very able, and that school projects, reading logs, test results and teacher comments are all irrelevant and show nothing.

I agree with earlier posters that pointed out that you really should have asked for clarification about the poster project and what was required in terms of extra detail. It does not help a child to be told it is acceptable to simply not do the task they have been asked to do, and that includes keeping a log of reading too. You should be supporting what the school is doing, but you don't sound as if you are. Instead, you seem to think that their tasks are pointless (ask what the purpose is) and that any lack of sufficient progress must purely be down to them. They are there to help your son, but he and you need to ask for clarification and be prepared to put into practice advice given about improving his levels. Are you actually prepared to do this and to help your son do this, rather than just dismissing the system?

GS entrance tests are different to the school curriculum. They do require preparaTion, in terms of the format of papers, working on timing etc. basic things like inference in comprehension will come up in those, as well as in SATs too. Sounds like this is an area your son has not got to grips with for SATs and this will be relevant for these entrance exams too. This preparation needs to be little and often, rather than massive chunks of time over a short period.

So OP, I just wonder if both you and your son need to try a different approach to school. How about working with them a bit more, rather than blaming the test, the teachers etc etc. Both school SATs and 11+ exams are about intelligence! but playing the system too knowing what is required and how to best achieve it. Teachers can be really useful, for the SATS part at least! See them as your allies, not people hindering your son.

Please do seriously consider whether there is a relationship between, on the one hand, the fact that he has (apparently) done rather badly in a comprehension exercise, because he didn't actually answer the question and, on the other hand that "He feels talked down to and as if they are always over-simplifying things." Is it possible that his teacher did, in fact, try quite hard to get him to understand how to understand the question, but he thought s/he was "over simplifying things" and went his own sweet way?

That may be unfair ... but you do seem to be rather quick to blame his teachers.

Even if he is genius material, he is also a 10 year old boy and his teachers do, honestly, have stuff to teach him.

Lots of misconceptions about levels on this thread. A 4A achieved in year 4 is the same as a 4A in year 5 . They have to be the same and the criteria for a 4 A on our assessment sheets is exactly the same across year groups. If they meant different things, then how on earth would we track progress?! It doesn't matter that you need a different number of marks . The paper is adapted to accomodate this and ensure consistency of levels. So for example, if in ur three you need 30 to score a level 3 and in year four you only need 12 to score a 3C that is because the year three paper is far easier and therefore you need to score more to get the level.

Is it the CSSE Essex papers you're sitting?

Thank goodness sherezade- I thought I was going mad......

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I'm normally v. pro teachers and having been in to see them I can see they they are doing some great stuff.

Yes rollonthsummer, CSSE it is.

no hakluyt you were spot on about the levels. We track children's levels from year 1 through to year 6 and expect a minimum increase of two sub levels every academic year . If children make less than two sublevels this is highlighted and could be an issue of concern. If a child was achieving, say for example, a 3A in year 4 and the same in year 5, it cannot be argued that the child has progressed because a level 3A is higher in y5 than in y4! That would mean that we cannot use levels to track children . It's a common misconception though as you can see I'm slightly anal about levels

So, for anyone who is interested, I marked the level 6 paper DS did last night. Predictably he didn't finish it - no attempt at the last 2 questions. However, he was only 3 marks away from getting the level 6, lots of good mark-worthy stuff, heck, he might even be better at this kind of thing than I am :)

At least I can relax a bit about the whole GS thing now.

sherazade, I'm a governor and was at a 'data' meeting this morning. I am so impressed with the level of tracking that is carried out at DS2s school and the steps taken to ensure progress.

Shame the same thing hasn't happened at DS1's school - like I said, he has made zero progress (on paper), how dispiriting for him. Nevermind, he's absolutely delighted with his level 6 near miss.