To not want to get too involved with school life?

[Pinkrosesarebest]

Just that really. My twin sons are in Reception. So we are only at the beginning of our school journey really. I will help out in the future I am sure but haven't so far. I always send in money when asked. However 2 mums talked very loudly near to me and quite pointedly today and said it's always the same ones helping out, signing up or organising PTA events. Surely it is a choice rather than an obligation?

"Our PTA has paid for enough iPads and laptops for every student to have access to one. They've bought several sets of instruments for the music room. Great play equipment for the playground. A kiln for the art room. A time out/safe room for children who need it. Professional standard lighting and sound equipment for our theatre. "

Ok this is controversial but...not actually that desperately, tbh. Sorry.

These are lovely things. But quite frankly, when were were a two-working-parent household, I think it was far, far more important that my kids saw us in the evenings and weekends than that they had a kiln at school, or even lovely things like laptops.

As I say, I've always volunteered, eg with Scouts, and somehow that feels different. Just better run, better at delegating, better at giving us stuff we can get on with when the kids are in bed.

It always felt like with the PTA you had to wade through a quagmire of politics and crap to get anything done, and honestly, as a working parent, that's not worth a kiln, I'm afraid.

(the time-out safe room is the exception to that-if that's not something the school can provide otherwise I'd be very happy to donate to that, and that's not something my kids would use, I don't think)

I'm a class rep and this week the teacher has asked me and another class rep to lend a hand accompanying classes to and from a local theatre for end of year rehearsals. I am more than happy to help out with that sort of unpolitical low profile but necessary job. It is what I think being an active parent should be - helping the school on the ground.

I work full time so I genuinely don't have time to do PTA stuff but, even if I did, I wouldn't.

At younger 2 DC's school, about 80% of the parents seem to be either 'in telly', artists or actors and they're all really intimidating. One parents' meeting I went to about year 6 residential, one mother stood up and loudly announced, "Sorry darlings, have to run, I'm on stage at 7.30".

They also all live in £2 million houses. DD is friendly with one of the PTA Queen bee's DS. When she came to collect him from a play date, she drove her range rover 300 yards from her house and then said, "Isn't your house tiny?!!
I managed to suppress the urge to say, "Isn't your arse HUGE?!!

I feel intimidated by threads like this that suggest that not helping out at the school makes my priorities all wrong and it manifests as cross - because then I have to analyse my priorities - no bad thing - and realise that they are fine, I am doing the things at the top of the list and they are the right things. But it makes me want to reply crossly at those implying that anyone who doesn't help is some sort of social leech who should be helping.

Or in other words - I am not fighting with an organisation in my life that may or may not exist - I am fighting with some of the people on this thread!

Seriously, though, who is it for?

• I believe (some of you with very well run set-ups may contest this, but my experience is) that these things are inefficient in terms of the resources they demand of parents (including or especially time or labour) relative to benefit. So while the yield may be necessary or useful, the cost benefit analysis doesn't come out - especially when viewed according to the example above where a poster said "my kids need my time more than a kiln at school" (paraphrased)

• if the volunteers don't enjoy it and are frazzled trying to get people to come to things; and people clearly don't want to come to things as it is such hard work to sell tickets for them; then given the inefficiency noted above, why bother?

• About those who turn up but don't sign up in advance to help: they probably don't want to do anything at all, and see showing up in support as a compromise. They haven't committed because if, on the day, they can't face more than showing up for an hour and buying a cake and some raffle tickets, they can do that, and not let anyone down. They don't enjoy these things you know. It's not like they have ligged their way into a ball at the Dorchester. They have wearily hauled their arses there because they feel they ought to.

• Helping out on school trips etc is different. You can’t take children places without enough adults there and I would take a day’s leave to do that, and have, because I can see how it benefits the children. It is quite different from all this sort of “fund-raising” (= parental-labour-spunking) dicking about. I suppose what I mean is: in that case I can see how my time has a direct value in a way that is irreplaceable (unless by someone else’s time). I don’t have time to be wasted on not being properly leveraged.

• Those PTA types who knee-jerk feel it would be “sad” not to do these events should ask themselves why, if you could get the same amount of money not doing them, or doing one really big one that really activates people’s generosity and may even be genuinely fun (although no one would mind if not as it would genuinely do a job) - Why would it be sad? What do you get out of it? Yes, you. Now, see who it is all about?

• I am only talking to some PTA types in the above point. Not the ones who say quite reasonably “ok throw cash our way instead if that’s how you feel about it”

Or how about give some money at the beginning of the year and have 2 events a year and leave it at that. And who will organise these events?

The problem with the one off payment idea is at schools such as my DCs school, I very much doubt many of the parents could afford to give £50 at the beginning of term, but £3 for a disco, £1 for some cakes etc spread throughout the year is more manageable. Exactly! Not only that, but you would have parents then saying 'I paid x in January & dc haven't done anything yet, where is my money going' so it isn't the answer, not at all.

Ours is a small school, only about 120 pupils. So there isn't a big pool of willing parents to call on. It would really help if some others would step up just once in a while. As I said, we have over 750 families at out school. We still have the issue of no one wanting to step up.

The gov council at our school (same as PTA in UK) has become a social group, in that we do meet & get together to sort stuff out. I know the mums quite well & that isn't because we have become 'exclusive' it is because we are the ones doing it all! You seriously cannot moan about us socialising together when we do so to be able to plan what needs doing. Anyone would be more than welcome to join in & help out, we would love that! You could socialise with us too.

Sigyn this won't be popular, but some don't do it simply because they have the ''let someone else do it'' & "I can't be bothered" mindset. Sad, but true. As witnessed here Life is too short for all that rubbish.

but it's hard enough juggling Childcare where I work full time let alone being expected to volunteer too! You aren't expected to volunteer at all.

well bully for you, well done, but I just can't do any more and I really don't like the snippy tone from some on this thread. And your well bully for you, well done comment isn't at all snippy, is it?

I couldn't manage to feel guilty about not spending much time and money on fundraising for trips, events or unnecessary equipment for the school. I just didn't consider it a good use of my time. That's not because I'm lazy - I host a coffee morning in my home every year as part of the MacMillan coffee morning fundraiser every September. And I support my friends with their fund-raisers by going to craft fairs, donating baking etc. (I enjoy baking)
I'm very happy for the school to go without ipads and expensive playground equipment. They're fine without it.

If others enjoy putting on fayres etc that's lovely, especially if the school is poorly equipped, but parents shouldn't be pressurised to spend their time helping the school. IMO

i said never to being on the pta but got dragged to a meeting one day and enjoyed it so stayed and thats when it turned sour ,, anything that needed to be done or was asked about being the same mum always volunteered nobody else got a look in and it got to the point nbody could do anything because this mum took over and then moaned she was the only one doing anything until a certain mum (ok it was me id had enough) turned round and said nobody else is doing anything because we dont get a look in you shoot your hand up or open your mouth before the question of help is even finished,,, and thats where my stint ended as i walked out and left them to it

Differentnameforthis
"'I paid x in January & dc haven't done anything yet, where is my money going" - this is a reasonable question, no matter how the money is raised. Not "it should all go to my kids" but transparent accounts and collectively agreed priorities

"The gov council at our school (same as PTA in UK)" - are you sure? A lot of the things you have talked about on this thread, in terms of volunteering, are nothing like the flim flam I am questioning. The pupils' canteen for instance - that serves a definite purpose - but is far outside the remit of the PTA in the UK. I am not sure your posts are relevant to people complaining about feeling wrong footed by PTA busy-work.

Chocluvva

"I'm very happy for the school to go without ipads and expensive playground equipment. They're fine without it."

this is a completely legitimate position

" Sigyn this won't be popular, but some don't do it simply because they have the ''let someone else do it'' & "I can't be bothered" mindset. Sad, but true. As witnessed here Life is too short for all that rubbish."

But that isn't quite what people on here are saying

No one is saying "I want a PTA but can't be arsed to do anything for it.".

It seems to me that those who are saying the PTA is a PITA are actually saying that they think there are better ways to do things. And my experience at least is that that can work fine.

Or another way to look at it. They are not actually that bothered by the things the PTA is fundraising for. Like me above. I prioritise time with my kids over the art room having a kiln. I'm far from lazy-I work full time, volunteer and study-but raising money for a kiln is just not on my list of priorities.

It is NOT that I expect someone else to do it for me. Its that I don't want a kiln, or a sensory shrubbery, or even ipads for all, enough to take the limited amount of time I have away from my family in order to attend meetings.

oh god the PTA types were ghastly at my kids' primary - the kind that would volunteer to make and serve tea at parents evening and then only serve it to their friends.
ime they were just sad people with little else going on in their lives

I think it's important to be involved in some way and there are plenty of ways to get involved without doing it through PTAs. Our PTA is cliquey and political and I can't be doing with all that. Also, the kind of event organisation that they mostly do is not my forte at all. I'll bake cakes and hand them in but I'd be rubbish at setting up the stall to sell them. They earn a heap of money for the school but it's not my thing at all.

So I go in and hear the children read for an afternoon a week instead. I expect that not one of the PTA thinks I do anything though because I'm not a 'high profile' parent in that way!

Separately to all of this, I am a volunteer for other things, I'm a serial volunteerer and I always get involved as long as that translates into doing something, not joining a talking shop/middle class mum matchmaking service. I WOULD absolutely join the PTA if I thought it would get stuff done. I didn't because, frankly, I have enough nice friends.

All this by way of saying, I know how frustrating it is when no one else steps up and get involved. But I think there's a lot of stuff out there around barriers to volunteering and I've certainly attended some great training/conferences with talks/discussions on why some people don't step up. It really might be worth looking further into why people aren't getting involved.

And oh yes I did the reading!

I really, really enjoyed doing that, I think I did it well, and honestly, over the years I did it, I truly think I made more of a difference to the kids than if I'd organised a crap bake sale and raised £50 toward a slide.

Yanbu.

My Dd is only 2 but I'm going to stay the hell away from those scary bitches. Everything I've read on MN confirms my suspicions that they are terrifying uber mummies who eat the faint hearted for breakfast!

I'm going to stay under the radar as much as possible!

No one is saying "I want a PTA but can't be arsed to do anything for it."

Maybe not on here, but there is definitely that attitude from a small minority at my child's school.

We don't have an actual PTA as such, there's a committee, but someone had to put their name on the official paperwork. We send out letters at the beginning of the school year asking for help and fund raising suggestions of what people would like to see throughout the school year. We get lots of feedback and mostly people are willing to muck in and run a stall for half an hour. Teachers and staff run stalls, chaperone discos, etc as well.

It's the constant bitching and complaining from a hardcore of parents that gets my goat.

We suggested not doing any events one year and asking for people who could to make a small donation - huge moaning that the kids would miss out on the fairs/cinema night/whatever. So we went back to organising the events - cue huge moaning.

You can't win.

We don't fundraise to buy stuff like iPads and kilns - we've just kitted out and equipped an empty room as a kitchen so the kids can do baking in school, we massively subsidise school trips and organise treats for all the children - run pancake races, Easter eggs hunts, Father Christmas gives out small presents at Christmas, ice lollies at Sports day, Year books for year 6 leavers, on the last day of term we're hiring coaches to take the whole school to the beach, we'll play games, buy icecreams

I'm not a queen bee, we're not a clique, none of us are awful with nothing going on in our lives. We just have a bit of spare time and happy to help where we can. If people can't/don't want to help, that's fine, whatever

Sigyn makes an excellent point. Rather than ascribing reasons and bitching about lack of volunteers and calling people lazy (as some have done on this thread), why not get some better information on why people aren't volunteering? Try different ways of getting people involved?

Some of the PTAs on here sound great, and some sound lazy and in a rut - if you can't do things our way, in our established ways or working, then you can't participate, but we will judge you for that.

There are some truly blinkered people on here about how absolutely offputting it can be to try to break into what us very clearly a group of friends who socialise together, regardless of how that has come about, and some real naïveté about how those groups come across to outsiders (and even how they come across when described by a group member on MN!)

Worth noting I have no horse in this race. No kid at school, serial volunteer elsewhere?

we're not a clique, none of us are awful
you just keep telling yourself that.
There are genuine reasons why your average parent runs a mile from that dreadful coven that is the PTA/HPA

I don't think it's helpful to take an example from one particular school and extrapolate from it that PTA fundraising is futile/vital/a nightmare encounter with Queen Bees and self-righteous harridans. At our school, PTA money helps finance expensive coach hire so that the pupils on our low-income estate have the chance to go on the same kind of school trips as those a couple of leafier miles up the road, whose parents might think something like a kiln would be a better purchase. I'd be surprised if more that 5% of our parents could manage to fork out a lump sum in lieu of infrequent, optional PTA activities.

As for efficiency, it's true that some events are more effective in terms of raising cash than others, but you can't do the same things all the time. I'm completely with you on the cakes, mind. I'm happy to buy other people's efforts, but no way am I arsing around wth baking when the money raised barely covers the cost of the butter and eggs.

I've never had any axe to grind about people who don't volunteer for the PTA, whether they can't or simply don't want to. It's the ones who carp loudly on the sidelines without adding anything useful who can fuck off.

I am grateful to the people who do the PTA stuff, and I don't complain about them, but I don't do it and I have little truck with anyone who gets sneery or huffy with people who don't. Yes, maybe it's "tiresome" that it's always the same people who do it, but I'd guess that's because they are the people who like/are good at that sort of thing and have the time. Or, in some cases, being a bit less charitable, because they are pushy, bossy, queen bee (or king bee, I know some) types who like the idea of being in charge and cosying up to the staff. (But I realise they are not all like that.)

Anyone who gets shitty with those who do not do it should realise that some people really are too busy working, looking after preschoolers, caring in other capacities etc - or are too shy and intimidated to get involved. Those people probably far outnumber the "lazy" ones.

Or they are like me and know they would be useless. I am crap in committee situations, I hate longwinded discussions and group politics. I am an efficient, autocratic "doer" who likes to just get stuff done. On my own. In meetings I would get impatient and probably cause offence, and I always find I disagree with what 90% of other people think so that's a non-starter right there.

OTOH, there are other ways. I do help the school when there are specific skills needed, and I make donations that I have a supply of through my business (not wanting to out myself). I don't do this publicly but the HT knows and it means she recognises me.

I will sound Machiavellian saying this but I think there is good reason to be "in" with your child's school. It does do you some favours, even though it shouldn't really, and with a child with SN it's helpful for me to be able to get the HT's ear when necessary (though I don't abuse that).

But, you don't have to do it by being a PTA queen bee. To anyone whose DC are first starting school I would say, unless that committee/organising stuff comes naturally, just take it slowly and keep a low profile, and find ways to be helpful that you can manage. And if you can't manage, that is fine.

One thing I find kind of interesting from those who are PTA types and are bemoaning the lack of involvement, is that generally they are not mentioning or noting that parents do other things, that another parent might be going in two afternoons to read with the kids or another parent might have made a donation in kind

I do feel there's a sense that the only true way to volunteer for the school is via the PTA and I think that's unfortunate. As I said above, I think reading with the kids is streets ahead far more important than a shiny new slide, or even cookery lessons.

I also think if you are struggling to recruit to the PTA but have other people volunteering in the school in other capacities, or volunteering with Scouts or Guides or what have you-well you really do need to think on what's going on there.

Not directed at anyone specific, btw, just thoughts on reading.

While I'm at it:

Do those who are tired of " the same faces" always helping think that the fathers should all be helping too?

I know this is just my school but honestly the communication is bloody awful and off-putting. Their summer thingy is coming up and we have been asked, in advance, in principle, to donate certain things - we were asked to tick boxes on a sheet offering help or donations. I did so (for certain donations). The event is now about 2 weeks away.
One specific thing (I only now realise) that all families are asked to donate is to be handed in ON THE FRIDAY BEFORE AND NO SOONER. Ok I get that. Now we are being hounded that few donations have been sent in. Oh, so we have been supposed to trickling in the other stuff for weeks? Where? How? When your child is just 5 you need to be told, you can't expect them to find out really.

Also - "raffle prizes". What is a suitable raffle prize? Will there be 20 prizes and something quite modest but reasonably nice will do, or are there 3 prizes and it should be something pretty good?

"something for the french stall." can it be second hand? Or is that tragic and will cause us to be sneered at?

All the people above who were so snotty about me not knowing anything - honestly it is a minefield when you don't get to the school much and nobody tells you in writing quite the full story on anything.

I work in a job with terrible internal communication problems. It is a constant stress finding out the things I need to do my job while tone-policing so that my inevitable impatience with our terrible systems doesn't show (they are terrible, this company is renowned in the industry for it). I know how to manage this shite, constantly gently charmingly prodding for information that has NOT been revealed in the communications to date even though someone THINKS it has, managing to be assertive but always pleasant while never appearing to blame anyone else, despite the fact that people are on the verge of getting snippy with you for not knowing, when believe it or not, it is not your fault - I know how to do all this, but I do it 12 hours a day to earn a living and after work, you know what, fuck that noise.

Sigyn - interesting post.

I think part of what is going on here is that organisers tend to have extrovert personalities (in the myers briggs sense) and are very comfortable with the social aspects of what they are doing (not that they are necessarily good at them! But comfortable with that stuff).

Other potential volunteers might have other skills but not the social comfort. The organisers need to accept this and do that stuff for them – make things easy for people who aren’t brimming with social confidence to take part – and accept that information sharing and clarity without too much effort on the part of the others is a huge part of this. This is not unfair – this isn’t some sort of outrageous spoon-feeding – this is how to get a range of skills, or all you get is bustly organisey social people who like being visible and you leave out the craftspeople or accountants or musicians or linguists or whatever who get a bit blushy putting themselves forward and dealing with confused social situations.

It is easy to huff and say “or you could just ask!” – but that is the hardest thing in the world for some people. Going up to someone – who might not even be the right person if you have made a mistake - who is with a group of people –and introducing yourself – and asking –and maybe getting a slightly off response – and then feeling like an idiot – ARGH it is terrible.

And if you don’t even know who to ask then where do you begin?

People who want to recruit volunteers should put out in writing information about

• Who the organiser is, and an email address and phone number, and times and places they can be found if poss
• What actual tasks are required
• What the objectives are
• How little or how much a volunteer can commit to, and especially if there are things that can be done on your own time like backing books or making things or stuffing envelopes, and if so, exactly how to communicate with a relevant named person about organising this
• If donations are required, what sort of ballpark value and when and where they can be sent
• If they are to be left in a part of the school not the child’s classroom, the child should be allowed to take them there before or after registration, or the teacher should collect them on their behalf – our school expects parents to drop things without the children, this is not something I feel it is fair to add the CM’s day as she has 3 different drop offs in the morning

There is a lot more stuff like this but surely this helps some of the (deliberate?) non-understanders get the gist

That's so true queen mab. Same in our school. The PTA is a social thing that you have to be quite brave to approach (if you are not naturally the life and soul of the party) and what they don't understand is that all their pushy communications about how you should join in and it's so much fun, actually put introverts off.

I guess the same is true in a lot of organisations and group situations. A lot of skills are wasted because people with useful skills don't always have the confidence and social cut-and-thrust needed to deliver them.

Also agree about the men/dads thing. Oh yes, put pressure on me to get involved, after all the fact that I work rather than devoting my life 24/7 to my kids' education, as a mum, means I'm basically a failure. Dads get let off because they are supposed to work, aren't they, so who can expect the poor diddums to do more on top?

OK no one has said this to me in so many words but it is the vibe that our largely SAHM-run PTA gives out. It's definitely offputting.

I think it is kind of sad that so many people are berating PTAs as some huge homogenous mass that is cliquey and bossy. It makes me think of "heathers."

I am quite shy and definitely not bossy. I am also the chair of our PTA. It was a fait accompli really - the previous chair was. Leaving the school and nobody else wanted to do it. It would have meant teachers stepping in to organise all the fundraising events. Being the pathetic people pleaser that I am I felt compelled to volunteer .

I am grovellingly grateful for any help. The rest of the committee are definitely not my cronies - I didn't even know them before joining and we come from different year groups. I have to give a talk to new parents next week and I am bricking it. I have to deal with certain politics, governance stuff (which I am crap at) and recruitment of senior staff. I don't love any of the above. It is important though. We are a community and I am part of that so feel I need to contribute. I also have a preschooler and am studying, but the school are brilliant about letting him tag along.

It has been hugely rewarding and I feel privileged to be part of the school community and impacting on my ds education - in however small a way. I actually initially joined the PTA as ds1 is dyspraxic and anxious and I wanted him to see me coming in and out of school so that he felt the boundaries between home and school were less severe (I also help in the library).

Anyway, I just wanted to show that we aren't all evil bitches - I would be absolutely mortified if anyone in the playground was intimidated by me or thought I was a queen bee. Is our PTA really that unusual (it was similarly inclusive when I joined the school...)

allhailqueenmab Our PTA does all that. It has a noticeboard with photos on (so you have a better chance of recognising the right person), plus a pigeon hole in school (next the school ones, so no chance of not knowing where it is), plus an email (which is on the school website, and included on the half-termly newsletter, plus a facebook page (communicated likewise).

It also lists out precise things that require help, split out into small sized tasks, including behind the scenes things and things you can do at home in (literally) a spare 10 minutes.

It's made a concious effort to do all these things, because parents complained (like you have) that maybe they would help more if they understood what to do and who to talk to.

.. and it's still all the same old people that help out every time.

The PTA are all working parents (might be one SAHM) with a mixture of dads and mums. We are not cliquey (most of us don't talk to each other outside of PTA events) and most of us are shy and would love to stick to he behind the scenes organising.

I appreciate that this is not everyone's PTA - but I think it does show that some people just aren't going to help no matter how easy you make it for them.