to think nhs could save a lot of money if docs did their jobs?

[HelenHen]

It seems far too common for docs to write something off as a virus or to tell people to 'keep an eye on it's

I had to hold my 2 year old in such a way so as to make him scream today to show the doc that there is a problem. He was determined to fob me off and get rid of me. It's really disheartening!

sirzy tbf i was told on the second time it happened at A&E to take her to the local walk in health centre the next time as it would be quicker to sort and we wouldnt have to wait 5 hours in A&E .

Oldfart that's horrific glad you're being listened to now!

Wow attic, that's terrible

Arctic obviously you have had a few bad experiences but how can you say 'most doctors' when you can't possibly have that info.

This is AIBU, not everyone is going going to agree with you!

We enjoy a higher standard of public health than the US, but spend less on health care. I feel that in general the NHS must be doing something right.

Over medication is every bit as harmful as under medication.

is a good example of where excessive doctor interference does more harm than good in the US.

Yes softly, those people are also a problem! Not what the threads about though!

For the record, I wasn't looking for antibiotics or any kinda drugs! I just want to know what's wrong with my little boy cos he's obviously not right

I think there's too much going on in the nhs too and people don't always know where to go: minor injuries, a&e, gp, nhs Direct, etc. It's not always clear and now they tell you to just go to the pharmacist! Seems nobody wants responsiblity!

Hope you get on okay @ doctor op

Your poor ds.

Our doctors still get paid when they decide that nothing is the right approach. If doctors are paid more when they decide to prescribe anti biotics or order interventions then it can harm care.

Helen I hope your little boy is feeling better today. All those saying if we didn't rush in with every sniffle- that's actually the opposite of what all my dr friends have ever told me in relation to children as they have a more immature immune system and can go downhill much faster than an adult. I don't know a doctor who wouldn't err on the side of caution and always see a child.

I also think you raise some interesting points about whether we have the right system in the UK in terms of having GPs and increasingly nurses as gatekeepers to all other services. I have had mostly pretty good experiences with GPs but a few corkingly bad ones, one surgery managed to trivialize and get rid of both me and my husband in a few month period when we both had moderately serious and more importantly treatable conditions. We left them after a dr laughed at me when I described my symptoms and sniffed 'well lots of things could cause that'. Eventually I got to a decent neurologist, got a diagnosis and have been living just fine with my medication ever since.

I think the problem is that the GPs are at the front line of all the lack of resources of the NHS and so some take the gatekeeping a little toofar- you have to push for antibiotics when needed or to get a specific one rather than just generic, you have to push for a referral, and they are not rewarded for these referrals- the system does not reward them for passing on huge numbers of patients but wants them contained in primary care. There are lots of countries that don't have a GP system, or rather don't depend on them to sieve out trivial stuff- in this instance, you would have gone straight to a paed. It is unclear that these systems are more expensive or less effective (e.g. Germany).

I don't blame GPs themselves, they in the main are working exceptionally hard and really to a large extent mopping up society's problems, particularly in mental health. But the system is poor, people fall through the gaps very easily, you can't self-refer so have to convince a GP which favours the articulate, the middle-class, the ones who look stroppy and disadvantages those who are less well-spoken, don't know what to ask for or are quite intimidated by doctors (not me!) Also, in other countries, they do things like whole blood screens with the results back within the hour- by computer, whereas here we have to wait several days and only phone between 9-11. The NHS is too lumbering and too slow and people really do end up suffering as a result of this.

I do think a lot of this is communication rather than poor clinical judgement.

There's nothing wrong with saying to someone "the most likely cause of this sore throat is a virus, for which there is no specific treatment. Even if it was bacterial, most clear up on their own in 2 or 3 days without antibiotics and of course all drugs have risks. You can use paracetamol / ibuprofen to reduce the pain and offer lots of liquids to drink - jelly and ice cream might go down well too. At the moment I'm not overly worried because your temperature is only slightly up, you're not having any problems with speaking or swallowing and you're otherwise well. If that changes, or things haven't improved in X time, come back to see me. Does that sound reasonable?"

However, this does all take time and is easier said than done in an over-stretched system.

"I don't know a doctor who wouldn't err on the side of caution and always see a child."

Seeing a child is not the same as prescribing medication. Sometimes doing nothing really is the best approach.

I would also say though that the GPs I know are immensely frustrated by this long hours bureaucratic culture in which it takes ages for things to happen and I know quite a few who want to cut down their hours or emigrate to better paid, better condition countries. The fault is not really with individual GPs- but the system that makes them the only person you can see if you have anything from a sniffle to a life-threatening condition. I would change GPs if you are unhappy with the service, my experience is that bad GPs cluster together in bad practices who don't go the extra mile or don't think about how to cope well with the volume of patients- others are much much better, I have a great surgery now that does doctor screening and my children have been seen on the day or within two days every single time I've called (and sadly that has been a few times recently).

We should be able to have a mature discussion about GPs and their roles without everyone getting so defensive about the NHS.

ReallyTired I completely agree, but I also agree with the OP that if you take a child in with a sore back, the dr should look at the back- what if a small cut or sore was missed on it, really basic stuff. My GP's always do a thorough look-over if we go in, even if it is for something a little tangential.

It's a generalisation but in my experience I've found many doctors to be dismissive and keen to rush us out if the door when I've taken my DC.

As an example, my youngest has recently been very poorly, he's only 16 months old.

We went to the doctors as he was vomiting a lot, he couldn't keep anything down, not even water. He said it was a virus.

Two days later we went back as nothing had changed, he was still not keeping anything down. Saw a different doctor as it's impossible to see the same one twice. Virus.

Again we went back. Virus.

We went to the hospital a week later. He hadn't eaten for 7 days. Still keeping nothing down. Virus.

Day 10 - he was 7lb lighter. Lost 25% of his body weight. Still not eating. Saw GP. Virus.

Not one of the doctors did any stool samples, blood tests, it anything other than check his temp and announce that he had a virus. No one would listen, looked disbelieving when I told them how much weight he had lost. Seemed to think I was exaggerating.

Day 13 - finally saw a decent doctor who listened. My DC was seriously ill with a BACTERIAL infection. Needed treatment. If it wasn't for the fact that I was still breast feeding then things could've gotten very serious very quickly. He was basically starving to death.

I'm sure there are decent doctors out there. But in my experience they are over worked, jaded, and just want to get through patients as quickly as possible and end their day. I don't think it's entirely their fault - they are over stretched, given 5 minute appointment slots - how they are expected to do their job in 300 seconds I don't know! But something needs to change.

I would say YANBU if you had inserted the word "some" into your title. Most doctors are great but some are dreadful.

The consultant who reviewed my test results failed to follow RCOG and NICE guidelines as well as failed to listen to me and apply any common sense. What could have been dealt with simply and easily on an outpatient basis in a single day resulted in me spending three months in hospital, 8 days of which were in intensive care, I had three major operations, 1 minor operation and my son spent a month in NICU. All because I was told I was worrying over nothing and to go home and put my feet up! The cost versus one simple outpatient appointment doesn't bear thinking about.

I hope you are listened to at your appointment today and that they work out what is upsetting your son.

Why do mumsnetters seem to think that

virus = making it up

bacterial= real medical conditon.

Viruses have killed vast swathes of humanity. For example smallpox, ebola, measles, spanish flu, mengentitis, HIV are all viruses. In many ways the fact that viruses cannot be treated with anti biotics makes them more lethal.

The human body has effective ways of fighting both bacterial and virus infections. Anti biotics can have major draw backs of killing useful gut bacteria or causing an allergic reaction or over use can cause resistance.

Once again, I was not asking for antibiotics!

Thanks for all the best wishes for today

yes of course!!

Many times I have had tussles with one doc in particular...and ended up in hosptial...and have another on going issue I am sure will be investigated by new doc and could have been sorted a long time ago.

The other really bad thing about the NHS system is that to hit targets, hospital consultants have to 'finish' with the patient, so people with chronic ongoing conditions get sent back to their GPs for further monitoring and to wait for their condition to deteriorate again. My husband has an ongoing life-long problem which requires year to two yearly monitoring, but was discharged from the hospital consultant after 6 months of trying to get the right treatment, with the advice to ask for a rereferral after a year from the GP. This is ridiculous in terms of resources, the GP doesn't know what they are looking for and won't know when is the right time for the monitoring to occur.

Not all specialities do this, he has another condition which is monitored and treated from the hospital through nurse clinics with the odd visit to the consultant and this is the sensible way to do things.

The NHS is massively inefficient and is predicated on close relationships between GPs and consultants which do not exist- I know of two people's care that has suffered as they fell down the gaps between GP/hospital even though their conditions were serious and treated already in hospital- this is not GP's fault, they are expected to care in the community for patients whose conditions they know little about. It is not joined up in the slightest (and don't start me on the mental health provision in this country which is simply appalling).

Thumbs up for Dr's here , I Felt a bit dramatic taking my week old to the Gp with a random just over normal temperature for an hour or two day but something felt wrong. He believed me and referred me to hospital who told me that if we were admitted we were in for 5 days minimum. typically no temp when we got there.
5 days later , still showing just a small temp increase for a few hours a day but absolutely everything coming back negative. Then in 24 hours multi organ failure due to an overwhelming virus and 5 months PICU. IF that GP has not believed me and we had not been in hospital when the virus struck hard there is no way he would be here 2 years later.

You have no idea how grateful I was when I saw the GP 6 months later and his joy at having made that call.

child of friend of friend (much smaller than your DC) was likewise screaming with pain on nappy changes - it was neuroblastoma... OK super-unlikely (and of course accompanied by other things), but I think GPs who utterly ignore parents who say 'this seems wrong' are unwise.

Right on Crystal.

If it weren't for the failures of a very shit GP, my MIL would most likely still be here.

Friend had to fight her GP for months, who insisted that her son "just had an ear infection" before she was finally referred (under the guise of "allergy testing")...pead took one look at her son, ordered tests, and that very night he was starting treatment for leukemia

There are very shit GP's, more often I come across a shit one rather than a good one. And the NHS is FAR from perfect, just as a wake up call for those who think it's perfect.

Big surprise... Told to keep an eye on it and come back next week! Doc gave him a very thorough check of his hips... Til I reminded him it's his back but I think our timeless up cos he barely glanced at his back and said he seems fine!

How do working parents deal with this shit?

Actually I know... They don't! Dh has two conditions that he's just gonna have to put up with cos each of them require 6 appointments before treatment can begin... So 12 in total! His work aren't that understanding! Know legally they must give him the time off but life isn't that simple

Sorry to hear that Helen. Would it be possible to see a consultant paediatrician privately? You can then be referred back to the NHS for any treatment. At least you would have the peace of mind that he has been properly examined.