To ask my neighbour about England flag bunting?

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My neighbour is outside on a ladder attaching England-flag bunting to the lampost outside his house (on the pavement). Is there a sport-related reason for hanging bunting this weekend that I have forgotten about or am I right to be slightly wtf? We live in a very multicultural area and I think it looks a bit aggressive and unwelcoming, although I accept it might not have been his intention. I know the neighbour to say hello to only and although he's always been reasonably friendly I have tbh been keeping a bit of distance as I know other neighbours have fallen out with him. Would you ask him why he is hanging it, do you think? Or am I being paranoid? And if you agree it is a bit dodgy how do I get him to take it down?

The people to blame are the BNP, the EDL and all the other right and far right groups that have hijacked both the union flag and the St George's Cross with their own agenda. Why not direct your ire in their direction,instead of pretending that this is some madey-uppy stuff by the PC brigade?

Very well said.

I take it the people who don't understand the association that some people have with the flag have never had their door kicked in by a flag carrying racist thug spouting racist shit. I take it they have never had to shield their children from the horror of watching an NF mob attack their father for being non white.

I don't think anyone has said 'Scotland,' Phaedra. Upthread I was referring specifically to Glasgow and have stated that the Union Jack as an aggressive/divisive cultural signifier is nowhere near the problem in Edinburgh or the rest of Scotland that it is in Glasgow.

Yes, it's sad and a problem propagated by idiots but it's not going away any time soon. And therefore I can say, as a Catholic, I feel very uncomfortable in areas of my city where Union Jacks are strung up everywhere. And I'm sure Protestants feel equally uneasy wandering in areas where there are Irish flags in all the windows.

My family is Catholic although I'm atheist. I live in Scotland. The Union Jack does not bother me in the slightest if anything it's the Saltire I dislike.

Why do you dislike the Saltire, Phaedra?

England are playing a couple more friendlies this week as well as last night's match, OP.

I expect your neighbour is just getting in the swing of things but please do ask him what his flags represent and get back to us with his reply

Of course sometimes the flag is used by racist groups, but it's still our flag.

And you know the Christian cross is associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, anti-abortionists who bomb clinics, child abusers and those work houses that were essentially prisons, yet people don't usually post saying they are suspicious of the motives of someone wearing one.

I totally get what the OP says about the England flag being seen as aggressive and unwelcoming, because it was used for a long, long time as code for "racist skinhead" (and in some cases still is). It was perfectly correct to assume anyone using or displaying it was someone to be nervous of.

However, a few years ago I realised that this had changed a bit, post-recent-football, when my (Black) brother bought my (British Indian) husband an England flag shirt for his birthday, and neither of them thought anything of it.

Your neighbour might be a racist git, or he might just be a football fan.

I am certainly not oblivious Impatient. We sit in the family section. Swearing is prevalent but never racist abuse

At all games the family area is different from other areas of the ground. If you ever sit in a drinking area you might witness very different things. The racist and homophobic thugs song tend to sit anywhere near the family area because it's easier for cowards to upset a small group of ethnic minority or gay people than it is to put up with the wrath of a whole stand full of irate parents.

Tend not to sit near

I dislike the Saltire as it is often accompanied by aggressive Scottish nationalistic tendencies and is appropriated by people who are self-appointed to think they speak for the whole of the people who live in Scotland.

Salmond's pathetic little stunt at Wimbledon was disgraceful (in case I get accused of being a soc puppet I'm Caitlin17 trying out a new name and have said this before)

Haven't read all the posts, but those saying bunting isn't aggressive- have you every been to Northern Ireland during marching season???

Don't worry, OP, England will be out in the first round then hopefully the bunting will be taken down.

Can't stand the stuff myself, especially England flags with ENGLAND printed on them - tacky!

I dislike the Saltire as it is often accompanied by aggressive Scottish nationalistic tendencies and is appropriated by people who are self-appointed to think they speak for the whole of the people who live in Scotland

I totally get that, Phaedra, and I thought Salmond's furtive unravelling of the flag at Wimbledon was lame too. But in
your quote above, replace 'Saltire' with 'Union Jack' and 'Scottish nationalistic' with 'Unionist' or 'Monarchist' and that's how the UJ makes me feel, where I live.

I guess we all need to see through others' eyes when it comes to flag issues.

They may say racist and homophobic things among their peers - that's true. In a ground of 30,000 plus people it is inevitable that there are some bigots but they wouldn't dare chant it out loud so that it could be heard on the pitch or around the ground. For that they would be ejected from the stadium and probably banned for life - so, no in the UK at least, since the 'respect' campaign etc, racist football chants cannot be heard.

I would say that English football has achieved far more in this regard than other European countries - and that in itself is worth getting the bunting out for!

the text under England is instructive and shows how far we have come with very few isolated incidents remaining

Oh dear lord Scarlettsmummy2, hardly a reasonable analogy - obviously context is everything!

the incidents under "England" seem rather more than those noted under "Scotland" so perhaps there is still some way to go for English football?

Clearly you didn't read it very carefully

Note the 1930's, 40's, 50's - 90's: monkey chants, bananas thrown on pitch, manifest racism

Contrast with the last decade or so - isolated incidents where a single (or a couple of fans) received life time bans or even imprisonment...plus high profile campaigns backed by football managersetc. A zero tolerance approach adopted.

I did read it and saw 6 racist incidents in 2012 alone. Which doesn't say to me that England has achieved more than other countries, because they are still having problems. Yes, things are better than they were - but thy were absolutely terrible before! And there is still the problem of the behaviour of England fans when they go abroad... IMO English football has still got a lot of work to do until they are at the same level as other countries.

Six incidents, five of which involved solitary fans, and only one a group of six fans (Millwall - enough said) - with fines, arrests and life time bans the outcome. I'd say this was a pretty good record considering the attendance at football stadia across England

And it really is a bit daft and totally untenable to suggest that we have work to do to catch up with other countries - sorry but I did choke on my coffee at that one

Ukraine, Poland...

I didn't say England has "work to do to catch up with other countries" though so it is daft to put words into my mouth and then draw an untenable conclusion from that. I said it "doesn't seem to me that England has achieved more than other countries" because they still had 6 racist incidents in 2012 and none were quoted in that article for Scotland, England's close neighbour and perhaps a more relevant comparison than Ukraine or Poland.

So yes, I do think that England has a way to go, based on that article. And while you may be blasé about individual fans causing problems, it is a very real issue, and is featured in the news today: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27647510

More than 1,400 football hooligans in England will have to hand their passports to police in the coming days to stop them going to the World Cup.
1400 is a large number of people by anyone's standards.

Splitting hairs somewhat. You said: "IMO English football has still got a lot of work to do until they are at the same level as other countries" how is that different to my paraphrasing which whilst not verbatim is pretty darn close, i.e. ""work to do to catch up with other countries". I can give you many comparisons with western Europe if you like - Spain and Italy for instance.

Thanks for the news item link - I read it, but it relates to football violence not simply racism, although I acknowledge that thuggery and racism tend to come together.

However 1,400 people is a teeny tiny number. The average attendance at a Premiership ground is 35,975 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22541130 and there are 20 teams in the premiership so 1,400 represents less than 1% of those fans attending :0.2%. Moreover this does not include attendances in the Championship, League 1 and League 2 which if factored in would at best guess reduce the percentage of violent (possibly racist thugs) to less than 0.1%

Thanks for the discussion - I am enjoying it but I think it is boring the pants off everyone else

Good post Hakluyt.

Even 0.1% is too much for my liking. The documentary that I watched last year highlighted that most fans who behave in these negative ways are not apprehended and have no action taken against them. Whilst filming, the undercover reporter approached stewards on many occasions to let them know that people were chanting racist stuff and the stewards did nothing. So 0.1% might be the official figure but I doubt it is a truly representative figure. But even 0.1 % means 1 in every thousand, so at a ground with 40,000 fans there would be 40 people guilty of these behaviours. I do feel I am wasting my energy here though because only people who have been subject to racism and violence at the hands of flag wielding thugs would truly appreciate how frightening it is to be in a situation where people are waving flags and shouting hateful things.
Within the last two years I have been in the receiving end of EDL members shouting abusive things and behaving in a menacing manner whilst carrying st George's flags. A couple of my neighbours are displaying flags at the moment and that doesn't bother me because I know they are only being patriotic and are supporting the national team. My neighbours have never displayed any racism and are very nice people but I don't have the same opinion of everyone who waves the flag particularly if they are walking down the street with it tied around them and shouting racist abuse.

If having England flags up in England is synonymous with being a racist thug, then all the more reason for the nice non BNP folk to put bunting up and challenge that. I don't bat an eye lid at England flags or assume thugs live there.