Reasonable punishment for unreasonable 14 yr old?

[popmimiboo]

Just after some mn thoughts.

DS is a 14 year old testosterone fuelled teen. DD2 is 8. This morning he was early getting ready for school so sat down at the computer and put on DD2's headphones that were already plugged in.
DD2 went into the room, saw that he had her headphones and said he "wasn't allowed" them.

Ok, I was in the kitchen so had no idea what went on ag the time. Neither of them deny this part though and DD1 (12) confirms it.

So when DD2 started being bossy about the headphones, DS jumped up and kicked her on the thigh. DD screamed. I dashed in, thinking she'd seriously hurt herself (she has form!) DD1 told me that DS had kicked DD2 hard. DS jumped back up and started yelling at me that she was putting it on and I was too stupid to see through her act etc etc.

All this before 8am!

Up to leaving for school, DS continued to speak (shout) at me in a foul way and refused to apologise to DD, calling her a stupid brat...

DD admitted that she'd pestered him over the headphones (though it happened seconds after she entered the room so it can't have been that bad) and I told her that she had been mean to refuse to share and that in future she should put her things away if she can't bear other family members to touch them.

As far as I am concerned, DS has no excuse to lash out at his sister (or anyone.) I am livid that he shows no remorse and is insisting that she deserved it. Though he is adamant that he didn't actually hurt her.

I've told him no computer for the immediate future but need to come up with a suitable, clear punishment for when he gets home from school.
He accidentally smashed his phone last week -WIBU to postpone any repairs as a punishement and to confiscate his kindle? Or would I be making a rod for my own back? Witholding pocket money?
Grounding him isn't the best option as I think he needs to burn off steam playing footie with his mates at the weekend and he doesn't go anywhere else.

WWYD? What doyou do with terrible teens?

Computer bans are impossible in this house. Too many computers, lap tops, iPods, phones.

Couple of evenings nasty chores and he can pay to get his own phone fixed unless that's the last rudeness you get off him.

8y are selfish and bossy. Especially if they feel put upon by being the youngest. You need to be firm with them about it, but in the end only getting older really helps.

My dd would throw a strop if someone tried to use her earphones and my ds(13) would roll his eyes and tell her she was being a plonker/baby.
I can't see that your dd did anything wrong.
I think it's ok to not want to share earphones.
Your dd was arguing with her db, not punching him to get her stuff back!

I've just spoken to DS ( he and DD1 are home early today.) He has made it clear that he is NOT ashamed of himself and that DD deserved it. He has not intention of apologising. I am really upset to hear him talking like this.
Computer ban is upheld. His phone is broken and his kindle is at his grandparents.
Not sure that any of this will actually get him to chsnge his attitude though. It will just make him more angry. I have to show him consequences though.
Need to talk to DH and ask him to have a word but I'm pretty sure DS will just yell back at him like he just did with me :-(

If at 14 he can't see hitting out at a 8y needs apologising for, he stays in trouble.

He's too old to find apologising when he's over reacted difficult.

DD2 did when she was 6ish, she pathologically couldn't say she was sorry, but she's grown out of it.

14 year old boy kicking 8 year old girl! Appalling, no matter what the provocation. Serious punishment; surely you know what to do? You sound apprehensive about dealing with your son; perhaps that is why he is so unrepentant; he can sense your ambivalence.

I think you're doing well! I would not try to force an apology if I were you - sounds like he's still got a head of steam, and you won't get anywhere with it. All that will happen is he will back himself into and corner, and will lash out instead of backing down, and everything will escalate. Give him some space to calm down

Simply state how disappointed you are with his attitude and behaviour, and the consequences. Make it clear that this is totally unacceptable and must not happen again. Possibly, (depending on the type of personality your son has) talk about how to handle it better when he has calmed down. Tell a funny story about when they were little and were being difficult and you felt like losing it.

And then follow through those consequences without nagging. If he moans/badgers/carry's on... just state: "DS you are not allowed x until y date due to your behaviour and attitude on Thursday".

Last bit of advice... don't constantly bring it up. Deal with it, and then move on. HTH OP! I know how difficult these teenage boys can be although my one DD may be the most difficult of the lot!

I would punish DS and leave DD2 out of it (bar perhaps some kind of discussion). I think it sends a wrong message to both to punish her - i.e. that she in some way 'deserved' the violence.

Even if your 8 yr old was "mean and bossy' your DS has no right to behave in the way he did. She deserved it is not a satisfactory answer.
If you don't punish him, what will you be teaching your daughter ?
That she has to spend the rest of her childhood creeping about trying not to offend him.

I agree ConferencePear. But would add: what would not punishing the DS teach the DS? That people (future wives?) 'deserved' it?

Goblin -I think that's true. I hate this behaviour and find it hard to deal with. DH is no better. He had a very authoritarian father who brought up his 4 sons like little soldiers so DH's reflex is to come down hard. I have been firm from the beginning that corporal punishment will never be tolerated in our family and DH agrees with this but has more or less deferred to me as he thinks I am better at dealing with them. I'm not. I was an only child and any sort of sibling issues are a minefield to me. Obviously DS is starting to use this against me with his arguments that DD is in the wrong and I shouldn't be punishing him etc etc.
It's exhausting!
Scouse -absolutely spot on. There is no way I am going to get anywhere re an apology of admittance of any wrong on his behalf. I think (hope) it is a maturity issue but for now, I have made my feelings clear and the punishment is clear. I will do my best to be firm on that and make sure DH sticks to it too. (Must set the PC family safety settings on the home computer and his laptop!)

I have to say a firm yes to him being notably punished.
I don't ever remember my brother facing any real consequences for his behaviour towards me, and the truth is, that led me to believe that my being bullied was just to be expected.

It did nothing whatsoever for my self esteem, I can assure you.

If he admits he did kick her but he is not sorry because she 'deserved it' perhaps see if you can ask him to explain so you understand his moral stance on this...his refusal to apologise is concerning you so voice those concerns! Punishment is a side issue and a finite thing, his character needs building if he really thinks this way (or thinks it's OK to let others believe he thinks this way).

OK so according to him it's OK to kick DD because she annoyed him...

Point 1: is it ok for him to kick you (his mum) if you annoy him? What about a stranger? A friend? A friend's younger sibling? A girlfriend? His dad? His Gran? Everyone is annoying at some point so who deserves a kick?

Point 2: what about if someone is more than 'annoying' what if they really upset or offend him? What is the retaliation he feels they 'deserve'? A kick? A punch? How far is too far?

Point 3: what about if he annoys people? Will he 'deserve' to suffer physical violence? If so what is acceptable to him? DD is obviously weaker and smaller so you'll need to level the playing field a bit, perhaps him kicking her is equivalent to her hitting him with a ruler or stick?

Point 4: What are his feelings on domestic violence? If a woman 'annoys' her partner is it OK for him to beat her (or vice versa)? Especially if the abuser is much bigger and stronger than their victim?

He is 14 not 4 you need to discuss this calmly and hope that the discussion prompts him to draw his own conclusions.

Great post fauxfox.

Excellent points FauxFox. He does need some food for thought.
And, Pictish -you are right, I will not have my DDs growing up thinking a kick or a slap is to be expected if they express the wrong opinion. DD1 has great self-esteem (as does DS) but DD2 is quite shy and a bit of a deep thinker. I will talk to her tonight, remind her about the sharing issue, but especially tell her that DS had no right to hurt her like that.

What fauxfox said.

It is absolutely not ok for him to hq've kicked his sister.

Ask him if a stranger annoyed him in the street would he kick them? And point out to them that if he did they could call the police and have him charged with assault.

I think it is Ok to tell your DD to try not to wind her brother up deliberately, but I am not easy with the idea that a little girl should have to watch what she says for fear of violence - treading on eggshells round someone who lashes out encourages the idea that she is responsible for her brother's violence, whereas in fact he is well old enough to understand that it is completely unacceptable to kick someone because they are irritating you, or for any reason. He is entirely responsible for the choices he makes about how to react to a small girl annoying him him.

I have a five year gap between my (now adult) DS and DD - they did sometimes annoy each other, but my DS would never have hurt her or kicked her like that, and he certainly had the same testosterone and moodiness that all teens have.

There is absolutely no excuse for the way your son reacted, but I think he needs to understand that he is responsible for his behaviour and not come out with any crap about noone understanding how annoying his sister is.

Would he kick a friends little sister or brother if they annoyed him, would he expect to be able to kick younger children at school and go unpunished?

He needs a reality check about what people think when big strong boys attack little girls - it's cowardly because he knows that a little girl can't do much damage if she tries to hit him back. Would he be so keen to lash out if someone bigger and stronger was annoying him?

I'd be very very careful about what you say to DD. In fact, I might want to have the "sharing" discussion at another time, completely separate from this incident. To suggest to her that she has any responsibility for getting assaulted because of something she said is a very bad message to send a young girl.

And I realize that you would be careful how you phrase things, but my concern is how she would process it.

Adding to what FauxFox said, since you have not used corporal punishment with your children, that gives you an especially good foundation for making those points.

Rather than 'he said she said' I would be very clear that his behaviour was unacceptable, not on, and then let him come up with alternatives to his behaviour if the situation rose again. He feels he's blameless and is clearly still angry but there usually is learning in this situation if you can talk to him in a rational manner.
I personally don't think punishments work long term and can cause resentment especially at his age, what would be beneficial is that he learns a new skill to cope with his annoying little sister And the conversation doesn't end until he comes up with alternative behaviour obviously they have to be practical and he has to suggest them so that it can be said back to him if he ever hurts her again (ie "you said you would walk away if dd ever shouted at you and you didn't,") he is accountable, he's responsible and if what he said he'd do doesn't work or he won't do it, he has to come up with another plan for how to behave when he looses his temper. You could ask him for an appropriate consequence for what happened and see what he comes up with.
It might also be worth having a word with dd about asking for her things in an appropriate manner and not having a fit if someone uses her stuff.

I completely agree with PP re DD not needing anything other than a clear message that it was wrong that she was hit. Even if she was a pain in the neck it isn't helpful to unintentionally suggest that her complaining about something was a contributory factor on why someone felt justified in physically hurting her. We all know where that path leads.

Re DS I wouldn't go anywhere near a conversation that suggests his testosterone levels affected his judgement, similarly we all know how that pans out in the future, "Sorry, Love. I had a bit too much too drink"

It sounds as if your household is one that doesn't condone physical punishment. If this is true then my response would be very simple.

1. You didn't grow up in a house where you were frightened of being hurt or spoken to in the way you have spoken to me and you never will be.

1. DD will also grow up being assured of this. I'm not interested whether or not you feel you need to apologise, I'm telling you now there will be no-one in this house who will be afraid of being hurt or spoken to with such contempt. Your behaviour disgusted me.

1. I will do everything in my power to prevent DD being exposed to this kind of physical violence.

No. 3 is the kicker (Pardon the pun), i.e. if they normally travel together on the school run, he will need to make his own arrangements as you cant concentrate on what he is doing and try to drive at the same time. Ditto any ferrying about you do for him that might mean DD needs to come along, Sorry cant do that either now.

I don't know how your house works, I'm just grabbing ideas out of the air.

The main points for me are that it's a waste of time giving airspace to any of his argument. You know what happened was wrong, as does he. At 14 he's a bit more difficult to get conformity from so I wouldn't go down the road of getting him to try and move his position. I would focus instead on what I could do, or rather stop doing as a direct result of his actions.

When he does come round I would also be making sure he genuinely tries to put it right with his sister. An "apology" doesn't cut it. He really needs to show her he was out of order.

I'd be a bit wary of given DH the role of given him a good talking to. Either you do it or both of you do it.

You might want to bide your time before speaking to him, maybe wait post dinner, just before his favourite programme comes on.

Lastly, If I was in your shoes, I would do as 1-3 above and then leave the room, don't get caught up in an argument about why he feels justified. You've asserted your boundary and nothing he has to say will change that. The only thing he needs to do is sort it with you and his DS. Let him take as long as he wants.

"Giving" not given, idiot!

I don't think your dd needs to be punished at all!

Aggression from her brother and punishment from her parents - what did she do to warrant it?

So she likes to keep her things to herself, a lot of people do. And she's also mirroring her brother in this.

I don't think your dd needs to be punished at all!

Aggression from her brother and punishment from her parents - what did she do to warrant it?

So she likes to keep her things to herself, a lot of people do. And she's also mirroring her brother in this.

gosh all this over a little squabble between the kids, really? "Assult" "self esteem issues in later life" blah blah blahhhhh.. She wasn't hurt, and probably provoked and overdramatised it to get him into trouble, which he is now in and she's probably loving it. No wonder he's angry. I can just imagine him sitting there minding his own business when she comes at him hysterically as he's using the disregarded headphones that are there rather than fetching his own. She's probably lunged to grab them and he's pushed her back with his foot and she's screamed and is now milking it. Please try and see it from his side. I do think they should both apologise to each other and a word with you DS about not hitting girls as your a big strong lad etc would work just fine and be more effective than screen bans which i feel are so pointless and don't mean anything.

And before i get slammed for trivilising this please understand that i am just immune to all of this and it seems really small and petty to me. Kids squaballing and fighting is like water off a ducks back to me. If this doesn't happen all the time i really would have a chat with him and let it go.

I would also speak and dicipline you DD for this situation, as she DID cause this argument and situation by not being polite or asking for headphones back like a normal person but instead turned hysterical and acted brattish and rude to your DS. Of course it no justification for hitting her at all, but it's still not the way to behave just because someone has touched something you left lying around. I could imagine being like that if he had taken them from her room or was teasing her and not giving them back, but she saw he was using them, saw red, and went off on one, whcih obviously didn't work out well for her. Your DS was, at the time, just sitting there calmly.

Jesus

She's eight. She is insisting he applies the same rules to her as he does to himself. She is powerless against his unfairness.

He is fourteen and he lost his temper and kicked her.

He is utterly in the wrong.