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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think, "Well said Prince Charles!"

306 replies

FrancesNiadova · 21/05/2014 09:40

I agree with the news commentators who say he shouldn't be writing to cabinet ministers, trying to influence policy. However, Putin, invading countries & handing out Russian passports, is behaving like a land-grabbing dictator.
Prince Charles is not the King, yet, so he is maximising his opportunity to say, well, what we're all thinking, basically.
I remember the controversy of the State Visit of the Chinese President. Instead of joining the formal greeting party & banquet, he booked himself to attend a much more minor event in Cornwall, to show his disgust for human rights abuses. The snub was not missed by the Chinese & the media.
Is it unreasonable to be pleased that he speaks out & a bit Confused by the bad press he's getting for it!

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/05/2014 17:23

I am amazed how little is understood about the constitutional position of the British Monarch and the Prince of Wales by people who are presumably British

You and me both Wink

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 17:57

math - maybe you do not understand what i said - all TV channels are Fox (I am v familiar with Fox btw)

Poaching Ukraine - lol. I did not realise you think in terms of Ukraine "mine" or "theirs" ffs

Puzzle. I do not disagree that normally heir to the throne should keep his mouth shut, but on this subject I think he is right not to do so.

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 18:00

and math, get yourself some ukranian friends and first ask them what Maydan was all about and who was lapping against Russia's borders. And maybe it will help if you get yourself some friends in Georgia and from Baltic states. Ask them also whilst you are at it.

Sallyingforth · 31/05/2014 18:52

And if the west is not out to weaken and defeat Russia, what is NATO doing lapping up against its borders, and what is the EU doing poaching Ukraine from the trading bloc Russia is creating?

Well I had left this thread, but bollocks like that needs an answer.

Russia is not only 'lapping up against the borders' of its former colonies, but in the case of Ukraine actually spilling over into them. It's hardly surprising that these countries are looking for protection from the West.

As for the EU 'poaching', as you very well know the EU doesn't go looking for new members. Potential new members have to go on bended knee and meet strict entry criteria. If Ukraine wants to join the EU that is their choice, but they won't find it easy or quick to get in.

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 19:39

I do have some Ukrainian friends as it turns out. They were horrified at the Maidan, having voted for Yanukovych with every hope that their vote counted in a democratic Ukraine, and the spectacle of the Right Sector and other right wing groups made them worried for their relatives, who are Russian speaking Ukrainians. And I have a relative who married into the family from Lithuania. She is not impressed by the Right either, whether it's the Ukrainian Right or the Right in Lithuania and the rest of the Baltic states, who shamelessly commemorate those collaborators who were tools of the Nazis during the murderous Nazi occupation of the Baltic states. And unlike some here, she knows the difference between the Third Reich and the Russian Federation.

Russia is static, Sallyingforth. It is NATO that is on the move.
The only expansionist powers in the world right now are China and the US (aka NATO).

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 19:41

All TV channels in the US except public tv are corporate-owned. News there isn't always what it seems. Fox is an egregious example but one of many examples of how badly this can turn out.

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 20:06

Right sector gained LESS THAN ONE percent in the Ukrainian elections. If your friend was worried about them, she should be much more worried about ultra-right in Russia who actually kill people and put footage on youtube.

I am wholeheartedly against former Nazi marches, but you should understand them in the context of their history and suppression. Nazi Germany was viewed almost as liberators after Soviet invasion of 1940. Did you know about mass Latvian deportations of June 1941 when babies, old people, women and men were loaded onto cattle trucks and taken to Siberia? They were stopped by Hitler attacking USSR on 21 June 1941. The pendulum of suppression that was tilted one way for decades snapped and went all the way to the other side. But this is only a small section

Russia is static because it cannot offer anything apart from spectacular corruption. With its current foreign policy it is left with friends like Syria, Zimbabwe ,N Korea, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Sudan, Venezuela (UN vote on Cremea)

In the USA one can freely watch Fox or Russia Today. Go on and tell me what opposition channels I can currently watch in Russia

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 20:59

Oops, whole section if my message got lost somehow. June deportations from Baltic States were carried out after soviets occupation as agreed in secret protocols to non aggression agreement between Molotov and Ribbentrop. Soviets agreed to divide Eastern Europe with nazi Germany only it was never mentioned in soviet history books. Also carefully omitted in the current history. Thank god I lived through the 90s when a lot of documents were published.

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 21:01

My friends were worried about the marching through the streets, the chanting, the flags and insignia, the lack of police ability to stop acts of violence against identifiable Russian institutions such as bank branches.
They have ceased caring about the results of elections because the events of the Maidan made it abundantly clear that the Right doesn't care much about them either. They have correctly concluded that elected officials in Ukraine hold power only as long as the marching Right sees its agenda followed. They have seen Tymoshenko win 12% of the popular vote despite her comments to the effect that Russian speaking Ukrainians should be nuked.

Did you know what happened to large numbers of the population of the Baltic states under the Nazis? Since the entire civilised world found the genocide perpetrated under the Nazis reprehensible and did not see fit to make allowances for context, maybe it is too much to hope that Baltic citizens would share that revulsion.

Here is how Estonia (not the worst offender among the Baltic states) treats its Russian speaking residents. I do not use the term citizens because some are denied citizenship:

'According to Amnesty International, linguistic minorities face discrimination in a number of areas, especially in employment and education. Migrants were exposed to harassment by state officials and attacks by extremist groups. Criminal investigations into allegations of excessive use of force by police were dismissed. Also Estonian security police, Kaitsepolitsei, made allegations against the Legal Information Centre for Human Rights (LICHR), which it claims is widely seen as an attempt to misrepresent the organization and to undermine its work.

According to Human Rights Watch report, 1993, the organisation did not find systematic, serious abuses of human rights in the area of citizenship. Non-citizens in Estonia were guaranteed basic rights under the Constitution of Estonia. However there were some problems concerning the successful integration of some who were permanent residents at the time Estonia gained independence.

The 2008 report of Special Rapporteur on racism to United Nations Human Rights Council noted the existence of political will by the Estonian State authorities to fight the expressions of racism and discrimination in Estonia.[10] According to the report, the representatives of the Russian speaking communities in Estonia saw the most important form of discrimination in Estonia is not ethnic, but rather language-based (Para. 56). The rapporteur expressed several recommendations including strengthening the Chancellor of Justice, facilitating granting citizenship to persons of undefined nationality and making language policy subject of a debate to elaborate strategies better reflecting the multilingual character of society.

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) examines regular reports of the member States on how the rights are being implemented under Article 9 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. In its 2010 concluding observations the Committee noted some positive aspects, and raised concerns and made recommendations with regard to Estonia's compliance with the convention. Concerns named in the report included: lack of protection of minorities from hate speech; racial motivation of crimes not being an aggravating circumstance; strong emphasis on Estonian language in the state Integration strategy; usage of punitive approach for promoting Estonian language; restrictions of the usage of minority language in public services; low level of minority representation in political life; persistently high number of persons with undetermined citizenship, etc'

But of course there is some context to the systematic discrimination so that makes it understandable..

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 21:28

They have also correctly concluded that it doesn't actually matter who they vote for or what they vote for any more since the interim government, picked by the State Department and installed by force by the Right in a putsch in Kiev, has entered into agreements with the IMF that will tie the hands of Ukrainian governments for many generations to come when it comes to pension policy, social welfare, taxes, pay for civil service jobs and availability of civil service jobs.

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 21:48

What "right agenda followeed"?? can you please be a bit more specific Did you know that timoshenko is actually from Russian speaking background? I would love a quote that tells me she wants to nuke "russian speakers" I doubt you can produce it.

"Did you know what happened to large numbers of the population of the Baltic states under the Nazis?" I know exactly what happened there, almost entire jewish population was exterminated. That is why I put soviet and nazi regimes on the same level, but you for some reason decide to ignore one of the two evils.

As for "They have also correctly concluded that it doesn't actually matter who they vote for or what they vote for any more since the interim government, picked by the State Department and installed by force by the Right in a putsch in Kiev, has entered into agreements with the IMF that will tie the hands of Ukrainian governments for many generations to come when it comes to pension policy, social welfare, taxes, pay for civil service jobs and availability of civil service jobs." ... - where is the evidence? It was a popular revolt against the corrupt regime, did you miss all of this?

Sallyingforth · 31/05/2014 22:21

Russia is static, Sallyingforth. It is NATO that is on the move.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at some of your propaganda math

Russia marching into Crimea is 'static'?
Russia moving tens of thousands of troops for 'training' right up to its borders is 'static'?

NATO hasno troops up against those same borders and has not moved anything. Its sole response to the Russian military advances is to fly a few extra flights as a token reassurance to some nervous border countries who are wondering if they are next on Hitler's Putin's list.

bemybebe · 31/05/2014 22:25

and math I just listened to the recording of the private conversation that were leaked. there is speculation it was edited by FSB, but whatever is true, she did not say "Russian speaking Ukrainians should be nuked", it is rather funny to suggest she is saying it as she is a ukranian and russian speaker herself.

there is a distinct disadvantage reading shit, whilst being unable to verify it for yourself. one may start believing it.

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 23:15

Tymoshenko makes a point of ostentatiously speaking Ukrainian, wearing twee Ukrainian folk costume, braiding her hair, etc., but ironically her remarks about nuking Russian speakers (and destroying Russia) were made in Russian.

www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-pm-wipe-out-russians-2014-3
"One has to take up arms and go wipe out these damn 'katsaps' together with their leader," the voice said in Russian, without mentioning Putin by name.
The word "katsap" is a derogatory Ukrainian term for Russians.
"I would have found a way to finish off these bastards," the 53-year-old leader of the 2004 pro-democracy Orange revolution was heard as saying.
"I am hoping that I will use all my connections and will get the whole world to rise up so that not even scorched earth would be left of Russia."
Discussing the fate of Ukraine's eight million ethnic Russians with Shufrych, Tymoshenko was also heard as saying that they should be "nuked".

Of course she denied her remarks.
She is a charlatan.

You seem unaware of the fate of many non-Jewish Baltic residents under the Nazis.

And it seems you have missed the bit about the IMF and the loan to Ukraine and the conditions attached? Maybe you choose to ignore the fact that Yatseniuk was hand picked by the State Dept to be the interim leader who would negotiate the loans and give away Ukrainian sovereignty for the foreseeable future?

The agenda of the Right is all about showing Russian speakers who is on top now, settling old scores, making Ukraine 'Ukrainian'..

mathanxiety · 31/05/2014 23:23

There are about 67,000 US troops in Europe and 12,000 supporting civilians, Sallyingforth.
'Its sole response to the Russian military advances is to fly a few extra flights as a token reassurance to some nervous border countries..' LOL.
Are you trying to say that the US doesn't see Russia as something to worry about, or that the US is such a peaceloving partner to Europe that it can't even bring itself to rattle a credible sabre in the direction of Russia, or what?

Maybe you should contact all the reputable news sources that reported the Tymoshenko conversation then Bemybabe, and set them all straight.

PhaedraIsMyName · 01/06/2014 00:14

Math I vehemently disagreed with you on the circumcision thread (as Caitlin) but you ate correct about Charles' constitutional position.

You're not correct about the EU wanting to poach the Ukraine. The Ukraine, like Turkey, might want to join but it will not be made easy for them. I would assume there are several key tests the Ukraine fails.

Scousadelic · 01/06/2014 00:23

I am very conscious that my knowledge here is limited but, if somebody is to speak for Britain, I would prefer it to be an intelligent person who is well versed in politics and represents the views of the people. I don't think prince Charles fits the bill in any way.

He was in Canada to represent The Queen who is the epitome of discretion, he has a lot to learn

bemybebe · 01/06/2014 00:24

Math, I am sorry to say but what you are peddling here is just a pile of propagandist lies.

PhaedraIsMyName · 01/06/2014 00:35

bemybebe I haven't read through the detail of what you and math are arguing about but I fully support her re Charles.

It's all very well to laud his intervention when he says something which accords generally with liberal,democratic views.

However we know Charles interferes in the political process. He is not an elected head of state, he is accountable to no-one and we have been denied the right to be told about the extent of his behind the scenes interference.

mathanxiety · 01/06/2014 02:09

Bemybabe, what propaganda exactly are you referring to?
Yatseniuk himself is on record saying he expects to be the most unpopular PM in history because of the conditions attached to the IMF loan.
If you can't trust the BBC on the matter of the growing influence of the Right and its role in the 'popular revolt', who can you trust?

The personal voicelessness of the person of the Monarch or his/her representative is one of the cornerstones of British liberty.

Sallyingforth · 01/06/2014 08:29

Those US troops are in bases around Europe. They are not up against the Russian border revving their engines, like Putin's army. They are most certainly not 'on the move' as you put it.
But you don't do facts do you math.

DoctorTwo · 01/06/2014 09:28

Russia marching into Crimea is 'static'?
Russia moving tens of thousands of troops for 'training' right up to its borders is 'static'?

Russia did have 40000 troops near the border with Ukraine but have moved them away. France24 have looked and could find no large deployments of Russian forces.

NATO hasno troops up against those same borders and has not moved anything. Its sole response to the Russian military advances is to fly a few extra flights as a token reassurance to some nervous border countries who are wondering if they are next on Hitler's Putin's list.

NATO has sent troops to Poland, the US has sent 600 troops and 16 fighter jets. Anders Fogh Rasmussen is being bullish. The CIA has admitted to having operatives in Kiev.

Ukrainian forces have shelled a school in Slavyansk and killed children. I won't bother doing your research for you, it's out there to find. AFP, Raw Story and Aljazeera all carried it.

An Italian journalist, Andrea Ronchelli, was killed by Ukrainian troops last weekend in a possibly targeted attack. Journalists are being turned away at Ukraine's borders, and some already on the ground have been arrested and deported. Again, it's out there for all to see.

Putin had to annexe Crimea to stop the US getting their hands on the Black Sea ports, which they would've done in a heartbeat. Other than Crimea Russia has no overseas military bases. The US has hundreds and are planning more in order to isolate and control Russia and China. 'American exceptionalism' is the excuse they're using, namely that international law only applies to other countries.

Sallyingforth · 01/06/2014 09:40

Russia had to annexe Crimea

Hitler had to annexe Poland.

bemybebe · 01/06/2014 10:36

USSR alongside Hitler "had to" annexe Poland also, as well as other countries in Eastern Europe, Putin as a heir to the Soviet regime is not far behind with his support for Prednestrovje, war with Georgia that resulted in South Osetia, Abhazia (and exported spectacular levels of corruption to these lands) , and now Crimea. In Crimea the Russian-backed prime minister is linked to organised crime and contract killings.

With Russia, Zimbabwe, Syria, N Korea, Cuba and all other wonderful regimes of this world you are in great company math and doctor.

It is true that there seem to be troops pull back by Russia. The current package of sanctions against Russia and the threat of new ones is obviously working or Putin would be in Donbass and getting further into building his corridor from Cremea onto Prednestrovije.

"The systematic abductions and hostage-holding by the pro-Russian militants in Eastern Ukraine..."

It is all getting a bit boring. I dont need to read all the idiotic shite here, I can watch it on "Russia Today" (who incidentally also tell the world that the twin towers were destroyed by the jews)

bemybebe · 01/06/2014 11:07

Although, i would still LOVE to be told by these free-speach lovers on mums net

  1. what opposition TV channels I can watch in Russia and
  1. why the authorities blocked Kasparov.ru (founded by the chess champion and one of opposition leaders Garry Kasparov), Grani.ru, and EJ.ru. Surely it is not for saying what they think of Putin's regime and damage it causes to Russia?? And
  1. why there is continuous vicious attacks by Kremlin on NGOs and human rights groups. And
  1. why there are so many journalists attacked and killed in Russia itself
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