To believe a degree does not make one clever...

[KeepOnKeepingOnAndOnAndOnAndOn]

I have a standard degree from a rather prestigious uni (this ain't no stealth boast btw!) and I still feel I am not half as intelligent as many i meet. People assume I will be, because of said degree.

I would like some sort of a career, possibly in teaching, but fear I am no longer clever enough (baby brain/ too much drink and drugs as a wayward teen etc etc )

When I speak of this I often get the answer, "But you have a degree..."

My degree was pretty easy and I did the bare minimum to get by. It doesn't fill me with confidence at all about my levels of intelligence :/

YANBU. It doesn't make you 'clever', it indicates that you are able to retain some types of complex information and understand them. It also indicates that you have some degree of ability to manage your time and work projects effectively.

I have a BSc and PhD and half the time I feel like a total idiot compared to my quick-witted non-degree-qualified colleagues

C'mon, describing yourself as 'very clever' is hardly the act of a shy and retiring type. Academic or have an aptitude for exams/ book based learning would have sufficed for the distinction you were trying to make. My academic credentials exceed yours but I wouldn't describe myself as clever (because I really am not)

Also if you think an iq test (I assume you've done a test by a traines professional in a controlled environment and not a shitty self administered one) adequately measures human intelligence then your aren't putting your first class mind to much use.

There are MANY types of intelligence. Degrees are a measure of one type, but it's not the be-and-end-all.

I know extremely brilliant and highly qualified people who don't have the first rudiments of emotional intelligence.
I know emotionally intelligent people who have no mechanical or technical know-how.
I know people who are technically brilliant who couldn't read a book.

We are all different, thank God - and rather than seeing intelligence as a numerical scale or a continuum from 'stupid' to 'clever' it may make more sense to see everyone as having some skills and something to contribute in different ways.

ComposHat but we should be able to state even as women that we "are very clever" just as much as we should be able to state "I make the best cakes", without people commenting that it is immodest. I am clever but that recognising that fact does not make me immodest.

Whilst there are people like you prepared to knock women for stating a fact about themselves as they see it, we all always be on the back foot and scared to speak out/push ourselves forward.

Thankyou sharing - it has taken me many years to be able to claim my intelligence/cleverness for myself.

Compos I'm not sure where I said what my academic credentials are? But I don't have anything very advanced, so no doubt you are right that yours exceed mine. And I think my post made it clear that I recognised the limitations of raw intellect, and that stamina, motivation, common sense, people skills, etc, etc are at least as an important, if not more so.

I will admit that I was a bit disappointed by the number of posters saying "I have a first class degree in something really complicated but I'm not clever at all", and didn't want to go in for that.

isabellavine I entirely agree with you, especially it may make more sense to see everyone as having some skills and something to contribute in different ways. A degree is not the be all and end all. It might be helpful in an individual's career path, or it might be of no consequence whatsoever.

When I left my first proper job, many years ago, I remember one leaving card which said that now I had a degree in the University of Life, the world was my oyster. I did have a degree too, but the manager who wrote the message always teasingly maintained that other experiences were just as/more important.

ComposHat but we should be able to state even as women that we "are very clever" just as much as we should be able to state "I make the best cakes", without people commenting that it is immodest. I am clever but that recognising that fact does not make me immodest

I would think anyone who said 'I make the best cakes' a bit of berk because objectively it probably isn't true and a bit arrogant.

Whilst there are people like you prepared to knock women for stating a fact about themselves as they see it, we all always be on the back foot and scared to speak out/push ourselves forward.

On this evidence, I don't think this poster has a problem pushing herself forward. I am not knocking women, I am knocking a poster (and I have no idea what gender they are) who states ' I am very clever' as if it were an objective fact. It is a value judgement and a sweeping one at that when clever is such a nebulous term, especially when other posters have indicated that the term has such a variety of meanings.

I have no problem with people expressing an aptitude for a particular thing - I have an aptitude for analysing historical documents and contextualising them - I have worked hard at it and have been taught by good teachers, it bought me a degree of academic success, but I wouldn't say that it made me 'clever.' In fact, the longer I spend in academia, the more I realise how little I know and what a dim bulb I am.

I am sure you are just fine op. Maybe lacking confidence.

Some of the daftest stupidest people I have met have degrees and some if the cleverest left school at 14.

No measure of intelligence at all really getting a degree it's just study and regurgitation.

And if my tap leaks I want a plumber not someone with a degree in physics!

Who cares whether you have a degree or not anyway?

Me and dh don't, my dss both do. My dsis has an MA bless her and is as daft as a brush.

With grade inflation and the majority (I suspect) of young people now studying for degrees, it's inevitable that a degree can no longer be taken as proof of someone's 'cleverness'.

But honestly, what does it mean to say you are "clever"?

Its not a term that makes any sense without a bit of context.

The issue isn't that a woman shouldn't be able to call herself clever. The issue is that the term is basically a meaningless one. Clever at what?

To me, it means quick, good at solving problems and a lot of that-more than we think, I think-does come down to experience and practice.

Unless it's a specialist degree for a particular job, one of the main things holding a degree shows is the ability to put in the necessary hard work, over an extended period, to secure a desired result

It's one of the reasons employers often demand such qualifications where they're not strictly needed for the job; not to show cleverness, but for evidence of application to the task in hand

My dad was a university professor and was firmly of the opinion that university was there merely as a holding corral, so that the managers of the future would be older than those in the entry grades below them.....

English university degrees, in common with US university degrees, are a very mixed bag. Quite a lot of people don't learn much at all at university - as research has shown.

It's a bizarre thing for anyone to day they are clever anyway!

Clever at what? Wayne Rooney is clever at anticipating the ball cross and scoring a goal.

There are clever makeup artists, builders, atheletes, doctors.butchers,artists.

No one is clever per she as no one is clever at everything.

I have two degrees a desmond in physics from a traditional uni and a MSc in Computational Physics from an ex poly. I did try teaching, but utterly hated it.

I don't believe that a physics degree makes me more clever than a non graduate, but the life experience was enjoyable. I feel that mastering difficult material has made me a more independent learner than I was.

"Some of the daftest stupidest people I have met have degrees and some if the cleverest left school at 14."

Very true. There are some bright people who are complete space cadets and lacking in common sense. I believe that being in the work place helps develop common sense. University students are like quasi children.

"No measure of intelligence at all really getting a degree it's just study and regurgitation."

Prehaps a lot depends on the subject.

"And if my tap leaks I want a plumber not someone with a degree in physics!"

There are plumbers who have physics degrees. People retrain to do new jobs all the time.

I think some of the comments up thread about some degree courses/degrees from certain unis are v. ignorant, sorry. Quite shocked really. FWIW I know loads of people who went to mid range unis who stick out intelligence wise. I know lots of people at my uni which is also not really prestigious (but looks good on a CV still) who are super super smart. As in, Cambridge maths smart. But they fluffed up the interview, or slacked during A levels, or they're just happier here. Don't be so bloody judgy- get to know a wider variety of people first.

A degree will not make anyone clever.

However, to achieve a good degree from a good establishment, one does need to be sufficiently clever to process a large amount of new ideas/information.

A good degree course should also train a clever person to use their intelligence, ask questions, analyze.

ReallyTired

True for you about a Plumber with a degree. People do retrain all the time now.

I know a successful lawyer who jacked it all in and set up a general gardening DIY business. One man and a van.

He is far happier and enjoys his life even though financially it's not as lucrative.

I guess really clever people are those doing a job they enjoy. Whatever that is.

revolutionarytoad

Honestly do you really believe that degree in Maths from Cambridge is an equal challenge to a degree in mickey mouse studies from the University of Gawd knows where?

"A good degree course should also train a clever person to use their intelligence, ask questions, analyze."

Certainly a degree does not make someone clever, but it improves their writing skills and ablity to learn independently. A degree course takes a young 18 year old who needs a school classrom to learn to someone who can pick up a book and learn about a subject without needing a teacher.

The important thing is evidence of transferable skills. In the 21st century proof of being "clever" is not enough. Someone who has a 1st in English from Oxford, but can't use a computers is limited in job prospects.

I feel we need a radical overhaul of the higher education system to look at reducing costs and maintaing quality. At the moment it is far to fragmented. Students need more flexiblity to be able to work and study. Older people need to be able to retrain.

I feel a combination of online courses, traditional courses and tutorials is the way forward. Surely the days of a lecturer giving a monolog to 200 students should be over.

A degree in physics does make you more clever....you learning skills, knowledge, and patterns of rigour in thinking. So you are more intelligent after the degree than before. If you ask the question 'on average are people with degrees in physics more intelligent than those without?' then the answer is still probably yes....but that is only on average. There will be many pairs of people you could pick for which the one with the physics degree is less intelligent than the one without.

Op - you sound clever enough to me!

Degrees are largely stepping stones, like most other exams. Some study as a genuine interest in that subject area but it is either going to be useful for a particular career or just a choice made at 17 years old. Employers are aware of this.

A degree just means that you are capable of completing a degree. You are then able to move onto the next stepping stone.

If you want to teach, try and volunteer in a school. It will give you an insight before you jump in feet first.

"If you want to teach, try and volunteer in a school. It will give you an insight before you jump in feet first."

Definately and volunteer experience will give you experience of interacting with children. I found that the PGCE threw me in the deep too rapidly. With hindsight I wish I had worked as TA for a few years first and done school based teacher training.

Some people are gifted with managing groups of children where as others have to work at it. Certainly when I attempted a PGCE the selection process looked at academic qualifications rather than practical things like does the candidate have any charisma or verbal communication skills.

If you want to teach, try and volunteer in a school. It will give you an insight before you jump in feet first

Obviously I can't comment for others, but round us it's almost impossible to get on a PGCE course if you've not done some work in a school to gain experience

Personally I think this is a good thing, just as varied supply teaching can be useful for an NQT, to give an idea of what type of school they'll want to work in later